940 saloon on ebay

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by MiniNinjaRob

You need to do some better research before spouting all that crap. All batteries in the UK are recycled, especially larger ones. Plus as they will be in vehicles if they ever get to be scrapped there is a legal duty for them to be removed, stored, treated and reused/recycled in accordance with high environmental standards and by appropriately trained and knowledgeable people. I would be very certain they would be very carefully recycled due to the expensive metals in them which will be reused.

Time will tell and when they're so over-run with batteries ready for recycling that the recycling plants can't manage, what then?

[omc 47]

Originally Posted by 360beast

I've got the solution everyone... Legs!

One of my favourite ZZ Top hits......and come to think of it still a brilliant pastime sitting in the park on a sunny afternoon cos' there's some nice ones around !!!!!!!!!!

[TonyS9]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Time will tell and when they're so over-run with batteries ready for recycling that the recycling plants can't manage, what then?

Its not like gov't is building a fixed amount of recyclers, a business model has been build into the recycling regulations. Manufacturers of batteries or vehicles have to pay for current recycling costs. More plants will be build they can then just demand the money from battery sellers/importers. WEEE and packing work the same way.

[TonyS9]

Dave, what you have said is exactly the same incorrect propaganda that I hear from others on social media. It just incorrect, you have read the same propaganda they have and are basing you opinion on incorrect information.

Battery carbon footprints- Yes its important, I stated it "mfr takes more energy than combustion engines", energy has a carbon footprint depending on many factors. Most battery mfrs recognise this and are reducing the engergy input needed and using renewable energy. Its reduced 2/3s in 4yrs from 2013 to 2017. In any case it still pays back compared with an equivalent combustion car. Basically you get CO2 ROI, thats all you need to know. The cream is that its getting better with more renewables (as charging also pays back faster).

Personally I didn't think the EV revolution was ready up to about 2 yrs ago, following Leaf examples of dead batteries. However after seeing research on Tesla batteries I have changed my opinion, they have solved any lifetime issues with ongoing user evidence.

Phone batteries are entirley different to car batteries, they barly last 400 cycles, a car battery will last 2000-3000 cycles, Tesla are still going well with many over 300,000 miles and no significant failures/capacity below 75%. The Leaf battery without liquid cooling is a bit delicate and can be damaged too easily, they improved it after the initial problems, current results show its still not as good as Tesla, but 50% capacity afer 60K miles is now unheard of in Leafs.

I don't see how V2G is a con, I am merely talking about what it could achieve as an Engineer, and Tesla is for-front in this. Battery day will have a significant announcement, least of all that Tesla is now supporting V2G with the advent of 1.2M mile batteries.
For your 60P-120p example, you have created a senario that will not happen, the whole point is to buy electricity cheap and sell it expensive, they even pay you take excess renewable electricity (this is happening now as wind rises at night). You don't just let them use your battery as they see fit, it belongs to you, you decide when you need charge, you or your software will decide how best to make the most money. Sometimes you can make several pounds for a few seconds of power when the grid frequency drops off. BEVs can prop the grid up faster than any non battery system.

Inverters and batteries are very efficient, they can probably be made even more efficient. Switchmode PSU design has gone from about 70% to 95% efficient in the last 10 yrs forced by regulations not customer demand.
A tesla Powerwall has a 92.5% round trip efficiency, that includes the power conversion twice.

Hydrogen IS an absolute con/Ponzi scheme. Its 3x less efficient than batteries as electricity-electricty storage, small fuel plants are in the $m's. Thats really all you need to know, you are chucking away 2/3s of the energy.

I've already explained we have long lasting batteries, its proven. There are even more volumous bateries that do 30,000 cycles (Lithium Titanate)

Battery life has been a bit of an unknown initially but over the past 15yrs or so Tesla have proven themselves, their batteries are considered the Gold standard.

In electricity efficiency is everything. Hydrogen storage can't stand on it own feet on the grid, they always talk about bundling it with renewables because they can't buy and sell electricity cheap-expensive. Hydrogen plant just costs too much and is too inefficient. Their method of cost saving is to bigger electricity deals with suppliers.

BTW energy required in a car is exponentially proportional to the speed, therefore the 2CV was forcing everyone to do more mpg. You do not do more MPG the faster you go, there is no sweetspot at a constant speed 50mph.

In summary Batteries are sorted, useful for everything, production is ramping up. Tesla make the best and most batteries, but the car design and mfring are a bit shody. The legacy mfrs have been left behind with lots of engines and not enough batteries, demand is higher than supply and they making some very strange announcements like 'we are limiting Rav4 EV production to 400 for the US', and 'we are continuing to invest in ICE'. The Hybrids are getting worse with smaller batteries and bigger engines. Waiting times are about 8mths for an EV and seem to be getting longer.

A couple of minor disadvantages
1. charging is still a bit slow or needs big power, long journeys need planned
2. Towing halfs your range (due to the air resistance) so the above problem is amplified into a real pain.

[360beast]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cloverl...e-problem/amp/

[TonyS9]

Originally Posted by 360beast

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cloverl...e-problem/amp/

Yep read about that a good while ago, its expensive they charge per mile. Might be an option for range extending at some point.

Main omission was how much energy it needs to make it, and why not sell on a buy and return basis?

No grid benefit though and no regen capability so still need rechargeable batteries.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by TonyS9

Dave, what you have said is exactly the same incorrect propaganda that I hear from others on social media. It just incorrect, you have read the same propaganda they have and are basing you opinion on incorrect information.

Battery carbon footprints- Yes its important, I stated it "mfr takes more energy than combustion engines", energy has a carbon footprint depending on many factors. Most battery mfrs recognise this and are reducing the engergy input needed and using renewable energy. Its reduced 2/3s in 4yrs from 2013 to 2017. In any case it still pays back compared with an equivalent combustion car. Basically you get CO2 ROI, thats all you need to know. The cream is that its getting better with more renewables (as charging also pays back faster).

Personally I didn't think the EV revolution was ready up to about 2 yrs ago, following Leaf examples of dead batteries. However after seeing research on Tesla batteries I have changed my opinion, they have solved any lifetime issues with ongoing user evidence.

Phone batteries are entirley different to car batteries, they barly last 400 cycles, a car battery will last 2000-3000 cycles, Tesla are still going well with many over 300,000 miles and no significant failures/capacity below 75%. The Leaf battery without liquid cooling is a bit delicate and can be damaged too easily, they improved it after the initial problems, current results show its still not as good as Tesla, but 50% capacity afer 60K miles is now unheard of in Leafs.

I don't see how V2G is a con, I am merely talking about what it could achieve as an Engineer, and Tesla is for-front in this. Battery day will have a significant announcement, least of all that Tesla is now supporting V2G with the advent of 1.2M mile batteries.
For your 60P-120p example, you have created a senario that will not happen, the whole point is to buy electricity cheap and sell it expensive, they even pay you take excess renewable electricity (this is happening now as wind rises at night). You don't just let them use your battery as they see fit, it belongs to you, you decide when you need charge, you or your software will decide how best to make the most money. Sometimes you can make several pounds for a few seconds of power when the grid frequency drops off. BEVs can prop the grid up faster than any non battery system.

Inverters and batteries are very efficient, they can probably be made even more efficient. Switchmode PSU design has gone from about 70% to 95% efficient in the last 10 yrs forced by regulations not customer demand.
A tesla Powerwall has a 92.5% round trip efficiency, that includes the power conversion twice.

Hydrogen IS an absolute con/Ponzi scheme. Its 3x less efficient than batteries as electricity-electricty storage, small fuel plants are in the $m's. Thats really all you need to know, you are chucking away 2/3s of the energy.

I've already explained we have long lasting batteries, its proven. There are even more volumous bateries that do 30,000 cycles (Lithium Titanate)

Battery life has been a bit of an unknown initially but over the past 15yrs or so Tesla have proven themselves, their batteries are considered the Gold standard.

In electricity efficiency is everything. Hydrogen storage can't stand on it own feet on the grid, they always talk about bundling it with renewables because they can't buy and sell electricity cheap-expensive. Hydrogen plant just costs too much and is too inefficient. Their method of cost saving is to bigger electricity deals with suppliers.

BTW energy required in a car is exponentially proportional to the speed, therefore the 2CV was forcing everyone to do more mpg. You do not do more MPG the faster you go, there is no sweetspot at a constant speed 50mph.

In summary Batteries are sorted, useful for everything, production is ramping up. Tesla make the best and most batteries, but the car design and mfring are a bit shody. The legacy mfrs have been left behind with lots of engines and not enough batteries, demand is higher than supply and they making some very strange announcements like 'we are limiting Rav4 EV production to 400 for the US', and 'we are continuing to invest in ICE'. The Hybrids are getting worse with smaller batteries and bigger engines. Waiting times are about 8mths for an EV and seem to be getting longer.

A couple of minor disadvantages
1. charging is still a bit slow or needs big power, long journeys need planned
2. Towing halfs your range (due to the air resistance) so the above problem is amplified into a real pain.

A few things you've misunderstood Tony :

I haven't seen anything on social media as i don't use it!

I was referring not only to the carbon footprint of making the battery but the car as well.

I'm well aware phone batteries are different to EV batteries - the point i was trying to illustrate is how the end user does not read the instructions and ineveitably abuses the product.

Thanks for explaining that V2G is an even bigger con than i thought it was! The manufacturers/grid have no capital outlay on their own batteries, no depreciation, no loss of efficiency and so on - think about it!

Inverters were always an efficient way of driving motors and/or converting DC to AC or even AC to AC/AC 3-Ph, especially when soft-start is needed.

I was suggesting hydrogen as an alternative fuel to petrol, not for generators to charge the batteries on an EV whether it's a plain EV, Hybrid or PHEV.

As for your analogy about speed Vs fuel economy, you're incorrect. The basic equation of speed and energy needed is right but you're forgetting that the engines in different cars are designed to be more efficient at different speeds. A few weeks back i got stuck behind some clown at 40mph and watched the fuel gauge drop because it wouldn't change up into top.
Also the point i was making about the queue of traffic behind the 2CV would have been in 2nd waiting for a chance to get past the tin snail!

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by 360beast

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cloverl...e-problem/amp/

Originally Posted by TonyS9

Yep read about that a good while ago, its expensive they charge per mile. Might be an option for range extending at some point.

Main omission was how much energy it needs to make it, and why not sell on a buy and return basis?

No grid benefit though and no regen capability so still need rechargeable batteries.

I've seen that before, also read things that say it's a hoax and saw some stuff on the news about it, they hinted (without saying it) that it was a hoax as well.

If it really is as good as it's meant to be then it could prove really useful but a few thousand quid for a replacement battery after x thousand miles is a tough pill to swallow. Better than 10 x thousand for a new manufacturers battery but at that point the car isn't going to be worth much with a working battery so rock and hard place come to mind!

[TonyS9]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

A few things you've misunderstood Tony :

I haven't seen anything on social media as i don't use it!

I was referring not only to the carbon footprint of making the battery but the car as well.

I'm well aware phone batteries are different to EV batteries - the point i was trying to illustrate is how the end user does not read the instructions and ineveitably abuses the product.

Thanks for explaining that V2G is an even bigger con than i thought it was! The manufacturers/grid have no capital outlay on their own batteries, no depreciation, no loss of efficiency and so on - think about it!

Inverters were always an efficient way of driving motors and/or converting DC to AC or even AC to AC/AC 3-Ph, especially when soft-start is needed.

I was suggesting hydrogen as an alternative fuel to petrol, not for generators to charge the batteries on an EV whether it's a plain EV, Hybrid or PHEV.

As for your analogy about speed Vs fuel economy, you're incorrect. The basic equation of speed and energy needed is right but you're forgetting that the engines in different cars are designed to be more efficient at different speeds. A few weeks back i got stuck behind some clown at 40mph and watched the fuel gauge drop because it wouldn't change up into top.
Also the point i was making about the queue of traffic behind the 2CV would have been in 2nd waiting for a chance to get past the tin snail!

I didn't say you got it on social media, I said the people on social media are saying the same things, likely you have gotten it from the same propaganda sources via "research".

It seems sensible to compare batteries and motors with engines, drivetrain and fuel tanks. The main rolling chassis is roughly the same.

I was referring to hydrogen as energy storage, which is what it is being proposed for. You start with electricity and end up with electricity. Charged Batteries and compressed hydrogen are similar in function as a carrier. Batteries in 90+ % and Hydrogen <40% on a good day.

Hydrogen cars need batteries for regen, starting the fuel cell, driving the car while the fuel cell is warming up, running the air pump and providing boost power because fuel cells have a low output. Ultimately Hydrogen is expensive as a fuel, the cars are more expensive, the fueling infrastructure very expensive. It will always be expensive, indeed they want to provide it as a replacement for petrol/diesel but unfortunately batteries are cheaper to buy and next to nothing to run, and do other tricks. Hydrogen is a dead duck.

The manufacturers can have interest or no interest in V2G, its not their primary profit maker, I'm not even sure if they wil lalways be involved. They just have to support it in the hardware of the car so it can output energy. Tesla wants to be a VPP (virtual power plant). You get your V2G contract from a electricity broker, as to their rip-offness I don't know at this point, but I do know they will pay you to take excess renewables, so you get paid to charge, then you can sell it back during peak or frequency drop events. That seems like a move in the right direction. The fact you are funding it means you get the profits, I don't see anything wrong with that. Tesla are talking about other options where they keep the battery and you get the car very cheap.

I can't comment on autos they are horrendously bad in the first place, gearing is generally higher, but my manual does it best mileage at the slowest rpm it will go in the highest gear which is 40mpg @ a steady 30mph, it goes down from there.

Aluminium batteries guy was on the BBC, he just seemed like a non-serious contender atm. I guesses that because of missing information it probably wasn't viable as part of the new energy structures. Usually cost indicates alot of energy is needed for its manufacture and the processing of new materials, meaning it needs more energy than charging a battery but less than the cost of Hydrogen.

[omc 47]

Then of course you've got guys like this in the mix who has my vote actually as his motto is "Having the ability to fix what you own" which brings us full circle...... but with a Volvo.

https://youtu.be/3Ytm_GnTkl0