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Cam Gear Nut loose and Gear Moves

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Old Jan 4th, 2020, 15:27   #11
tdz840
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The lock washer shown on the IPC is no longer available. I’ve changed 4 versions of cams over the years and asked the specific question each time (along with the lock washer for the thrust plate screws- albeit these now appear available) and the response was loctite green.
Applied properly loctite is a ‘proper’ solution and acceptable in place of lockwashers.
You may be able to fashion a suitable fixing but why when there is a perfectly acceptable (and recommended) solution?
There are stronger solutions than green and I believe 262 was identified. However, it can be a pain removing and I’m adverse to using heat even though it’s unlikely to do damage (but to ally cam gears??).
The most important thing is to prep the bolt/cam thread with a proper proprietary preprep. I use loctite 7063.
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/uk/...e_sf_7063.html
Some people swear by brake cleaner/carb cleaner but that can leave a residue. 7063 has been developed for sealing fixtures and very economical.
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Old Jan 4th, 2020, 19:12   #12
gothamus
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Thanks for finding that in the parts book. But why let that impede work, eh? I'm going with the loctite red without a washer. (I did this last night, before the green post). I can do that and have her moving instead of sleeping on the side of the street like some bum (no offense to the bums)

Since I built this engine I've gone 2,600 miles before the condition presented itself. It's likely I will have an audible warning of failure. It might be a good idea to look behind the timing cover in 200 or so miles. Even better if I find an excuse to pull the pan. It's difficult but I've done it once before. And I have a reinforced and freshly powder-coated crossmember in the basement. Suddenly an easy task if I make that happen.

While the loctite cures today I'm going to swap the clutch master cylinder. I replaced it 2 years ago with a newly rebuilt MC. Of course, the seals are leaking. I swear, I have no sign in the past 4 years that we can rely on the work of supposed professionals. I'm volunteering my position of amateur mechanic, far from a pro, slow and unsure. It's troubling that I'm the most reliable resource. 75% of work the PO outsourced or reconditioned parts that I've purchased end up being repeated or rebuilt by my own self. It's absurd. That's worth a thread on it's own! Not that we need encouragement to more negativity in this world. Swap that MC with one I rebuilt and move on, Mr., move along.

Thanks for looking up the details and sharing the experience of greasy hands. Appreciation I have!
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Old Jan 4th, 2020, 20:34   #13
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I thought you might get a hoot by this assessment by the guy who build my MGA 1600 race engine - a man from South Carolina and perhaps a former moonshiner for all I know - with specific reference to the crankshaft washer:

"Yep, you don't need it, it was a joke to start with. I am totally convinced someone at the MG factory was sleeping with someone at the locking tab factory, there's no other reasonable explanation for over use of totally useless tab washers on our engines and our cars."

Several other less linguistically colorful engine builders on my MG forums also urge discarding the lockwashers and using LockTite. The articulated theory is that the lock washers are too soft and won't hold the required torque over time; and that the Locktite is the better solution. Perhaps the Swedish factory did a better job than the British factory in tabbed lockwasher hardness.

From my own experience with loose axle nuts held by tabbed lockwashers, , I've abandoned the use of the locking tab washers everywhere on the car, relying on LockTite instead. The only possibly exceptions I might make if using stock parts is on the con rods. But so far, I have used only aftermarket APR fasteners with the LockTite for the con rods.
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Old Jan 4th, 2020, 21:11   #14
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If the problem is the Lock nut loosening shouldn't the locktite be on the nut?
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Old Jan 5th, 2020, 14:27   #15
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I'm no big authority (this is the Internet, after all ) But I think that as long as it is on the threads of either, it shouldn't make any difference. Getting rid of any oil on the threads is important, however.

For ease of use, I mostly use blue LockTite that comes in a tube and that you twist out like lip balm. I hardly, if ever, use the red as it is for permanent fixings. I hardly ever use the liquid LockTite as I feel I end up wasting a lot and it's pretty expensive. My blue may be the equivalent to your green.

In any case, there are several youtube videos and other sources on proper use of LockTite.
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Old Jan 5th, 2020, 16:12   #16
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BTW the cam gear moving back and forth on th shaft indicates to me a loose woodruf key among other things
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Old Jan 5th, 2020, 18:57   #17
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Arcturas, you just have to leave me with some theory that feeds on my worries now I have well cured LocTite Red on my cam nut. (jokes)
As best as I could make out woodruff was in place, sufficient to work on the gear and behind. I couldn’t move it anywhere with some small hardware pressure applied.
The blue seems too weak to be applied to anything of that intensity or motion and apparent force. It’s is best used to hold screws in place against regular vibrations while not being compromised by heat. It’s in every piece of technology hardware we have since it takes little to remove. I’ve ended up with plenty of mini tubes of it from such assemblies. I’ll make it a parting gift to any visitors.

Rural southern mechanics are great sources. When I was a kid in the Southeast US we took all our foreign cars out of the city. They always had some slight tweak or insight that worked. For them the weakness in good cars was overly worrying Euro engineers are yankee union assembly. I think their kids are building BMW and Mercedes cars in S.C. or Georgia.

Today’s a cold windy day again. Ugh. Good day to test that heater. (Anybody else find that no matter how hot and stuffy inside, their toes stay cold? I’m trying to design something to address that. Eliminating rearward heating didn’t make any difference. Removing the heating channel between seats, no change. Cold toes!)
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Old Jan 5th, 2020, 21:12   #18
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The purpose of the woodruff key is to ensure the camshaft is keyed in the correct position wrt both gear wheels
Without it you are relying on the torque of the cam nut to prevent the cam turning out of phase.
Therefore without it you will have a world of pain when the valves work out of sync with the piston position.
I believe some of the Swedish/Dutch tuners offer a offset key that works in the same way as a verniers cam gear(albeit with less variance)
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Old Jan 5th, 2020, 21:32   #19
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I understand that function. I merely meant I looked as well I could to make sure it wasn’t somehow absent.

I might be overly sensitive here, but after starting it the engine was much different than I was expecting. And I ran it only a few minutes while I give this some reflection. It’s a cold day today, so it would take a little longer to warm up.

First thing- she’s much quieter! Heck, this could have been as issue right at the start. That’s eerie. And at a lower idle, shudders much more than I’m used to. I had to increase rev to 2k rpm to keep her from a sudden drop and stall. Kept it up for maybe a minute or more, closed choke, no negative change. As I dropped revs down it went from smooth to a decided shudder. I could feel it under me and see through the windshield the engine moving.

Maybe I’m easily spooked at the moment. I just changed the clutch master cylinder and it needs further adjustment ( in neutral, this was just an engine test).

I’m going to run through everything I would tune. Check valve lash since I had done some adjustment before I realized the actual problem). Oh boy, I hope I’m being jumpy.
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Old Jan 6th, 2020, 09:59   #20
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Best of luck,hope all your problems are solved.Once I get rid of my awful cold I hope to start again,facing the same problems as you have just had.
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