Any Advice, Part 2!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Reading this and Alan's last, I think we need to start thinking again, away from the pump at the basics that we know.

Under advisories in the last MoT, there's:
'Offside Front Suspension component ball joint dust cover severely deteriorated'

and under Monitor there's:
'Play in steering rack inner joint(s) ()
Offside Track rod end ball joint has slight play (2.1.3 (b) (i))'

Not sure about the steering rack inner joints (is that difficult?) but we can do the ball joints both sides and see where that gets us quite easily (ha). Both ball joint issues on the same side as the direction of heavy steering.

The McPherson strut thing - with the car on props, the steering swings easily enough all the way but - on very hard right, there's a creaking sound (and some resistance) that I think comes from the top of the strut, I can only hear it with my head near but it's clear. That said, I can easily pull it through complete locks by hand, holding the disk brake, and with it on stands from inside using the steering wheel I feel no resistance at all, so it's not much resistance. But maybe it needs thinking about - and I'd not even heard the words McPherson struts til you wrote that, Dave.

I'm going to see about that spring too, just because... And point taken Alan, start small and work up to more expensive possibilities. I've been thinking in reverse, I think - fix the ps problem so he can drive, then fix the smaller things that could wait a little. Could well be they're the same thing, we'll see.

ps Dave - we used the turkey baster method to put a fair bit of fluid in the system (getting on for 2L) - I thought it had worked to improve things at first but I'm pretty sure that was just that the system was all warmed up, Next day it was the same as before.

That is better Chris, with older cars it is likely that quite a few things are a bit wrong and so contribute to an issue that may not be rectified by changing a single part - particularly if it is an expensive one.

It is important to be methodical and not to jump to conclusions and start changing random parts - that will just lead to great expense and is the way projects fail.

Do the easy bits first, so:

a. change that spring anyway, you have a spare one, so why not.
b. after that (because you will have lost some ATF anyway) do the fluid partial change thing that Dave explained.

... see what it is like after that - so far you and your boy have only spent a couple of pounds worth of ATF and an hour or so, so go for a drive and see if it makes any difference. Keep a note of what you have done in your estimates book - and record what effect it caused.

c. It sounds like the track rod ends need changing anyway, you could just change the dodgy one, but for the cost I'd suggest both. Check out all the other joints in the linkage whilst you have it apart for the track rods. Check the suspension top mounts and make sure the camber adjusters are about in the middle of their settings.

... give it another try (on the way to a garage to have the alignment checked and adjusted).

If you still have not fixed it after all that we'll start thinking about the rack.

Exciting, isn't it?

:-)

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Reading this and Alan's last, I think we need to start thinking again, away from the pump at the basics that we know.

Under advisories in the last MoT, there's:
'Offside Front Suspension component ball joint dust cover severely deteriorated'

and under Monitor there's:
'Play in steering rack inner joint(s) ()
Offside Track rod end ball joint has slight play (2.1.3 (b) (i))'

Not sure about the steering rack inner joints (is that difficult?) but we can do the ball joints both sides and see where that gets us quite easily (ha). Both ball joint issues on the same side as the direction of heavy steering.

The McPherson strut thing - with the car on props, the steering swings easily enough all the way but - on very hard right, there's a creaking sound (and some resistance) that I think comes from the top of the strut, I can only hear it with my head near but it's clear. That said, I can easily pull it through complete locks by hand, holding the disk brake, and with it on stands from inside using the steering wheel I feel no resistance at all, so it's not much resistance. But maybe it needs thinking about - and I'd not even heard the words McPherson struts til you wrote that, Dave.

I'm going to see about that spring too, just because... And point taken Alan, start small and work up to more expensive possibilities. I've been thinking in reverse, I think - fix the ps problem so he can drive, then fix the smaller things that could wait a little. Could well be they're the same thing, we'll see.

ps Dave - we used the turkey baster method to put a fair bit of fluid in the system (getting on for 2L) - I thought it had worked to improve things at first but I'm pretty sure that was just that the system was all warmed up, Next day it was the same as before.

Chris, the ball joints referred to with the covers are the track rod ends, don't go ordering "ball joints" as you will wonder what on earth they are giving you! Yes, there are ball joints in other places on the front end but they look wildly different and are much more difficult to change.

If you can hear creaking and feel resistance from the top of the RH strut, chances are that's the stiffness on full lock.

I think you may have misunderstood me about the turkey baster/syringe method on the PAS fluid. The idea is to empty the reservoir (usually about 250ml) and then fill with fresh fluid and repeat at 2-300 mile intervals until the fluid remains clean afterwards. Usually this takes 3-4 repeats. If you put nearly 2L of fluid through in one go or even several goes close together with no real use in between, the fluid is new but the dirt is still in there.

As Alan has hinted at, the time has come to stop reading things online, in the Haynes Book of Fantasy and wherever else, stop working on it and stand back and assimilate the newly gained knowledge, the exact facts of what is happening and then deconstruct the situation and piece it back together, hopefully arriving at a likely conclusion along the way.

Once you've reached that potential conclusion, check your sources of reference to try and find any pointers that will confirm or refute your idea. If those sources all point to your idea being wrong, don't worry, sit back and clear your thoughts then rethink things later.

On the other hand, if your thoughts/ideas are more or less confirmed, work out your plan of action and stick to it.
If it doesn't pan out, it gives you more food for thought as to the exact problem and maybe even a pointer or two and also eliminates one possible cause.
That's why you must stick to your plan although common sense needs to be applied if there is something you hadn't foreseen that will likely cause danger.

When fault finding, it's best to always start with the simple, cheap, easy stuff. That way you eliminate the obvious quickly and the chances are, you get to the problem in any case. If the obvious has been eliminated and the fault is still present, you will have a clearer picture of where to look for the potential fault - it also saves money and usually eliminating the simple stuff improves matters anyway.

[Chris152]

Thanks both. Exciting indeed, Alan!

Dave - I used that method but without the 100-200 mile trips! I read sources but they didn't say that, so it was all done in a day, with little drives and turning the wheel lots. I'll buy another litre and do it more gradually.

Is it possible my pump doesn't have a cap behind which the spring sits nice and easily?! I've looked and can see nothing of the sort - what I thought was the same on ours as the ZF type is in fact the form that attaches to the high pressure outlet. There doesn't seem to be anything visible that would house the spring (pics attached). I guess the spring's hidden away inside?

We're going to spend the morning devising a fault-finding strategy, looking at the possible culprits, listing them in sequence and making a plan of action...

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

As Alan has hinted at, the time has come to stop reading things online, in the Haynes Book of Fantasy and wherever else, stop working on it and stand back and assimilate the newly gained knowledge, the exact facts of what is happening and then deconstruct the situation and piece it back together, hopefully arriving at a likely conclusion along the way.

Once you've reached that potential conclusion, check your sources of reference to try and find any pointers that will confirm or refute your idea. If those sources all point to your idea being wrong, don't worry, sit back and clear your thoughts then rethink things later.

On the other hand, if your thoughts/ideas are more or less confirmed, work out your plan of action and stick to it.
If it doesn't pan out, it gives you more food for thought as to the exact problem and maybe even a pointer or two and also eliminates one possible cause.
That's why you must stick to your plan although common sense needs to be applied if there is something you hadn't foreseen that will likely cause danger.

When fault finding, it's best to always start with the simple, cheap, easy stuff. That way you eliminate the obvious quickly and the chances are, you get to the problem in any case. If the obvious has been eliminated and the fault is still present, you will have a clearer picture of where to look for the potential fault - it also saves money and usually eliminating the simple stuff improves matters anyway.

... exactly as Dave says Chris... be methodical and don't look for silver bullets to fix things at a stroke. You are maintaining a 40ish year old machine, lots of things will be a bit wrong and may contribute a bit to issues, that doesn't mean they all need fixing at the same time (unless you are undertaking an as new car restoration, in which case Dave and I are the wrong people to listen to).

So often people come to this forum with some issue they have not bothered investigating or thinking about, and want an instant silver bullet fix. Often I then see someone advises them to buy that particular silver bullet, which costs a fortune and has to come in a special Volvo box, they buy it but it doesn't fix the issue. After that they either hang around and start eliminating things methodically until the issue disappears - or we never hear from then again (perhaps they give up with their £2000 project and sell it to the banger derby chap for £80?).

Be methodical, be resolute, do the cheap and easy stuff first... and above all enjoy your lovely motor car project with your son.

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Thanks both. Exciting indeed, Alan!

Dave - I used that method but without the 100-200 mile trips! I read sources but they didn't say that, so it was all done in a day, with little drives and turning the wheel lots. I'll buy another litre and do it more gradually.

Is it possible my pump doesn't have a cap behind which the spring sits nice and easily?! I've looked and can see nothing of the sort - what I thought was the same on ours as the ZF type is in fact the form that attaches to the high pressure outlet. There doesn't seem to be anything visible that would house the spring (pics attached). I guess the spring's hidden away inside?

We're going to spend the morning devising a fault-finding strategy, looking at the possible culprits, listing them in sequence and making a plan of action...

The 2-300 miles use in between is necessary Chris - the stuff you've read is for general servicing and while maintaining the car, won't always get things as clean as would be nice. When investigating a fault such as this, you need to get everything that is reasonable back to basics as far as possible - it also makes the car nicer to drive!

Looking at your pump, you don't have a renewable srping/plunger so that's that idea off the table. Not the end of the world, just do another fluid part-change for now and continue on the rest of the diagnostic process.

First thing on your "Culprit list" would be the track rod end, second the RH strut-top bearing (not a job for the faint-hearted changing one of those! ) and third, belt tension on the PAS pump.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

First thing on your "Culprit list" would be the track rod end, second the RH strut-top bearing (not a job for the faint-hearted changing one of those! ) and third, belt tension on the PAS pump.

Good plan Dave - except do the third one (belt tension) first because it is free and easy to do :-)

[Chris152]

Can anyone confirm I've named these parts correctly (see attached photo)?

1. Track rod end (steering);
2. Stabiliser link;
3. Lower ball joint (suspension).

The stabiliser link's not mentioned in the MoT but it looks like the rubber on that is perished too, should it be replaced?

The rubber on the track rod end looks fine this side (tho apparently it has slight play) but somewhat perished on the near side, so we'll replace both. We'll do both sides of each part that needs replacing.

Also, the two rubber brake hoses leading to the off side are very slightly perished looking, should we see to those soon? They seem strong still but not sure where you draw the line.

Thanks, Chris (and Arthur)

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Can anyone confirm I've named these parts correctly (see attached photo)?

1. Track rod end (steering);
2. Stabiliser link;
3. Lower ball joint (suspension).

The stabiliser link's not mentioned in the MoT but it looks like the rubber on that is perished too, should it be replaced?

The rubber on the track rod end looks fine this side (tho apparently it has slight play) but somewhat perished on the near side, so we'll replace both. We'll do both sides of each part that needs replacing.

Also, the two rubber brake hoses leading to the off side are very slightly perished looking, should we see to those soon? They seem strong still but not sure where you draw the line.

Thanks, Chris (and Arthur)

Yes, you're correct Chris, worth noting the 2nd item is also referred to as an Anti-Roll Bar Drop-Link and they should be renewed in pairs. I'm renewing a pair on my Rover at the moment, just come in for coffee and a rest.

Without a pic of the two flexi hosees it's difficult to say but yes, probably. Should be fairly cheap, i've recently bought a pair for my 760 for about a tenner (was an advisory on the MoT) and will fit them with a brake fluid flush come the warmer weather.

[Chris152]

Thanks Dave - just took a look at Haynes on the stabiliser link and it says to remove the link, replace the rubbers and refit - does that sound right to you? Or best to replace the whole thing?

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Thanks Dave - just took a look at Haynes on the stabiliser link and it says to remove the link, replace the rubbers and refit - does that sound right to you? Or best to replace the whole thing?

It's best to renew the whole shooting match Chris, several reasons, one of which is the new one should come with a new Nyloc nut that are generally regarded as single use animals in "critical" areas. However, when the fastenings are of a reasonable torque setting then common sense can be used but for the drop-links where the nut forms part of the compression and function of the bush on the threaded part, it's always wisest to renew the nut when replacing the rubber. That means you'r 3/4 of the way there - upper bush (threaded part), Nyloc nut, lower bush - only leaves the link itself with corroded threads that may compromise the new Nyloc nut. You see where this is going.......

Also much easier to find the complete assembly and besides, you'll have something bright, shiny and new for Mr MoT-man to see come next years test so he'll see you've been diligent and take things easier on you.