240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I'd say we are still learning those lessons Alan, we are still educating foreign students and they go back home and develop the things we should be developing and marketing.
As a nation, we seem to have a strange attitude of resting on our laurels when we have created something good, other nations then take our ideas, improve them and/or make them more reliable/economical/faster/better/whatever and sell them back to us, putting our businesses out of business in the process.

Alternatively we come up with good ideas, the money people here say "that'll never catch on so we won't finance the development etc" so the inventors go elsewhere. Then they become an international success and their products become household items.

Originally Posted by Moomoo

City spivs want a quick return.

Vision and imagination are not a prerequisite qualification for such!

The problem has many more facets chaps. NIMBYism is a huge problem in the UK: getting planning permission for even a small change takes years, results in endless challenges and even after all that will result in Swampy chaining himself to a tree or some retired geography teachers gluing their arses to the road outside the factory/warehouse/office/road/railway/port/airport/nuclear power station or whatever. This is just a function of ordinary folk having too much money and the population density being too high.

The other issue I see is that folk don't want to do anything: train drivers don't want to drive trains because £82,000 PA isn't enough, teachers don't want to teach kids because their 13 weeks hols isn't enough, hospital consultants don't think £130,000/year is enough, nurses don't want to treat any patients... and so on.

If I was an investor (and I am) I wouldn't be putting much of my capital the way of the UK because I think most of the ordinary folk here just want something for nothing. I still like living here though - I just wouldn't invest in anything but property because the constant rise in the populations means there will always be more demand than supply.

Just the musings of a middle aged man with a beard and a dog called Bob.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

The problem has many more facets chaps. NIMBYism is a huge problem in the UK: getting planning permission for even a small change takes years, results in endless challenges and even after all that will result in Swampy chaining himself to a tree or some retired geography teachers gluing their arses to the road outside the factory/warehouse/office/road/railway/port/airport/nuclear power station or whatever. This is just a function of ordinary folk having too much money and the population density being too high.

The other issue I see is that folk don't want to do anything: train drivers don't want to drive trains because £82,000 PA isn't enough, teachers don't want to teach kids because their 13 weeks hols isn't enough, hospital consultants don't think £130,000/year is enough, nurses don't want to treat any patients... and so on.

If I was an investor (and I am) I wouldn't be putting much of my capital the way of the UK because I think most of the ordinary folk here just want something for nothing. I still like living here though - I just wouldn't invest in anything but property because the constant rise in the populations means there will always be more demand than supply.

Just the musings of a middle aged man with a beard and a dog called Bob.

I totally agree, most of the population suffers high density!

Also most teachers don't actually get 13 weeks holiday as they spend that time in the summer hoidays marking and preparing the curriculum for the next academic year.

As for planning permission, it's a joke how long it takes. With the inventions, i was referring to things over 100 years old (or thereabouts), vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, motorbikes (Harley-Davidson for one) - all invented in the UK but had to be taken to the USA for someone to realise the potential and bring them to market. Now i know you may not have a Harley in your shed but i can virtually guarantee you have a vacuum cleaner and a fridge!
However, much of the same attitude prevails and while it could be argued that NIMBYism has a certain amount of merit (after all, who would want a high security prison built 1/4 mile from their home?) there is certainly a case for restricting these things to a certain level.

As for train drivers earning £82k, i'm not sure if they do or don't but why is there not a queue for train driver jobs? It's certainly better pay than NMW, that's for sure!

Oh yeah, they'd have to put some effort in and actually do some work to earn their £82k - poor little snowflakes!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I totally agree, most of the population suffers high density!

Also most teachers don't actually get 13 weeks holiday as they spend that time in the summer hoidays marking and preparing the curriculum for the next academic year.

As for planning permission, it's a joke how long it takes. With the inventions, i was referring to things over 100 years old (or thereabouts), vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, motorbikes (Harley-Davidson for one) - all invented in the UK but had to be taken to the USA for someone to realise the potential and bring them to market. Now i know you may not have a Harley in your shed but i can virtually guarantee you have a vacuum cleaner and a fridge!
However, much of the same attitude prevails and while it could be argued that NIMBYism has a certain amount of merit (after all, who would want a high security prison built 1/4 mile from their home?) there is certainly a case for restricting these things to a certain level.

As for train drivers earning £82k, i'm not sure if they do or don't but why is there not a queue for train driver jobs? It's certainly better pay than NMW, that's for sure!

Oh yeah, they'd have to put some effort in and actually do some work to earn their £82k - poor little snowflakes!

... but there is a huge queue for train drivers' jobs Dave - that is why they are rarely advertised. Recruitment is generally via friends of friends and there are probably 50 applicants for each job. It turns out that many folk like the idea of having the opportunity to earn £82,000/year. The selection process is exacting and most applicants fail in the early stages; the training is very rigorous and it takes a while of shunting carriages before one is entrusted with driving on the main line. The pay is excellent and the work comes with a degree of essential overtime as trains often end up away from the driver's home depot at the end of the shift.

Just the other day I watched a really interesting 'How Cars are Made' (or similar title) about the new JLR factory in Slovakia. It turns out that Tata's main consideration in locating a new Land Rover plant away from the UK was planning issues here. I have some sympathy with that, you may recall that one of the biggest problems with the Rover SD1 was quality control for rust protection and paint. The problem was that due to a planning issue with the council it wasn't possible to build and paint the cars at the same site, so the bare shells were loaded onto transporters and driven to a different plant (often in the rain I suspect) for finishing. That must have been at least 40 years ago - so NIMBYism isn't new.

Ho hum

[john.wigley]

If you chaps think that obtaining planning permission is difficult, you have obviously never had to apply for a Faculty in order to effect change in a church.

Our tower clock required redecoration and there was someone who was prepared to do the work at cost. We applied for a Faculty to do the work, but the restrictions imposed, not least the type of paint that we could use, were so stringent that we have been forced to reluctantly abandon the project.

Another example: the lead on our tower roof was found to be leaking, and, on investigation, subsequent water ingress was discovered to have seriously damaged the 400 year old oak beams supporting it!

Now, it is 90 feet up and only visible from the air. There are also much lighter, more durable and cheaper alternatives to lead available today. Once again, we applied for a Faculty to do the work and - guess what - we have to use lead. No arguments, no 'ifs' or 'buts' - it's a church, lead is what it has to be!!

Well, obviously we couldn't just leave this one or the tower would ultimately fall down. So we bit the bullet and did the job, more than doubling the £40k estimated cost to £90k, and thus ensuring that a future PCC will face exactly the same problems in another 100 years, or so.

No, getting planning permission is a doddle compared to obtaining a CoE Faculty.

Regards, John.

[Moomoo]

Mysterious Ways , John!🧐

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

If you chaps think that obtaining planning permission is difficult, you have obviously never had to apply for a Faculty in order to effect change in a church.

Our tower clock required redecoration and there was someone who was prepared to do the work at cost. We applied for a Faculty to do the work, but the restrictions imposed, not least the type of paint that we could use, were so stringent that we have been forced to reluctantly abandon the project.

Another example: the lead on our tower roof was found to be leaking, and, on investigation, subsequent water ingress was discovered to have seriously damaged the 400 year old oak beams supporting it!

Now, it is 90 feet up and only visible from the air. There are also much lighter, more durable and cheaper alternatives to lead available today. Once again, we applied for a Faculty to do the work and - guess what - we have to use lead. No arguments, no 'ifs' or 'buts' - it's a church, lead is what it has to be!!

Well, obviously we couldn't just leave this one or the tower would ultimately fall down. So we bit the bullet and did the job, more than doubling the £40k estimated cost to £90k, and thus ensuring that a future PCC will face exactly the same problems in another 100 years, or so.

No, getting planning permission is a doddle compared to obtaining a CoE Faculty.

Regards, John.

Thank you for that John, it was a fascinating story. I'm guessing a Faculty is the bailiwick of the listed buildings people? I hadn't come across the term (I'm not that sort of surveyor) but I'd heard similar stories from architects and engineers.

These are all manifestations of the same thing - NIMBYism.

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by Othen

Thank you for that John, it was a fascinating story. I'm guessing a Faculty is the bailiwick of the listed buildings people? I hadn't come across the term (I'm not that sort of surveyor) but I'd heard similar stories from architects and engineers.

These are all manifestations of the same thing - NIMBYism.

That's right, Alan. A medieval church such as ours is, in effect, Grade 1 listed. Being a church, it is exempt from planning permission, but subject instead to Faculties, which are if anything more stringent, and issued by the Diocese concerned. They also don't come cheap!

Regards, John.

[Moomoo]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

That's right, Alan. A medieval church such as ours is, in effect, Grade 1 listed. Being a church, it is exempt from planning permission, but subject instead to Faculties, which are if anything more stringent, and issued by the Diocese concerned. They also don't come cheap!

Regards, John.

What would the Nazarene carpenter’s son have to say?🙏

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

What would the Nazarene carpenter’s son have to say?🙏

Good question! One to which I must confess that I do not have an answer.

Regards, John.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Moomoo

What would the Nazarene carpenter’s son have to say?🙏

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Good question! One to which I must confess that I do not have an answer.

Regards, John.

You beat me to it John!

It is a question that could precipitate a huge debate about us appointing ourselves custodians of the various religious buildings and other older buildings that are now Listed.

One school of thought might say "It's Gods will that the building decays and falls" whereas another might say "It must be preserved for worship" - likewise with a 17th century house - "it must be preserved as it was built" and "it's old, let it crumble and we'll build a new one".

Similarly with cars and the concourse Vs oily rag/rolling restoration. We always do our best to make things as they should be/need to be to last in the most practical way and with cars, we often take the route of using a better product that isn't original for cost, weight, durability and so on. Of course that detracts from original but it makes them last longer and is an excellent compromise.
It's a shame those in charge of listed buildings and religious buildings (whether they are churches, monasteries, cathedrals or even the good ol' rectory where the vicar lives during the week) can't see the compromise is worth making.