Amazon: New (to me) 1963 Volvo 122

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Like you Dave, I'm tempted, but I know it would make no sense.

A 300 mile round trip with the Skoda towing my 3/4t trailer (so 60MPH maximum) would use 6 gallons of diesel at £8/gallon is £48 and take a day of my time. That much wouldn't be too bad I suppose, and if it was only a 100 mile round trip I might have done it.

There would be a bit of risk when I got it back here: it might not work and be expensive to fix, it might need calibration and so on. I suppose I could find somewhere to set it up, perhaps in the motorbike shed (currently full of pushbikes, larger tools and Volvo spares). The real demerit is: how often would I use it - maybe something like 4 wheels in the average year? I could hardly justify all that effort, even though it would be an incredibly cool machine to own.

I'll keep an eye on the auction - it ends at 10:42 tomorrow - so I'll try to stop myself buying it (even if it is still for a pound at the end!).

:-)

For an extra £12 you can have it delivered, save a day of your time and wear and tear on your Skoda.
I'd guess you'd use it more than 4 wheels worth a year, if you hit a pothole etc or otherwise think your wheels are out of balance.

[ITSv40]

The phase convertor to run it an a domestic supply would probably be more than the cost of the machine.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by ITSv40

The phase convertor to run it an a domestic supply would probably be more than the cost of the machine.

Use a couple of capacitors or change the motor (possibly even just reconfigure the motor to single phase), alter the transformer tappings, job done. It says on the ratings plate 220-240V and 380-420V and single and three phase. Total power is less than a 3-pin plug can supply and the seller indicates it only needs a plug so could well be on a single phase supply already.

Ways round most things!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by ITSv40

The phase convertor to run it an a domestic supply would probably be more than the cost of the machine.

I hadn't realised it was a 3 phase machine. In that case you are right - although possible it wouldn't be worth the hassle.

:-)

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Almost certainly worn brushes Alan, remove the starter, place it in the vice nose down and remove the two long screws that go through from the commutator end to the drive end bracket (visible in your pic) then lift off the comm end cover. This should reveal the brushes and commutator and you should be able to see which are worn. Easiest (and best) to buy a pre-wired brush pack with the new brushes already fitted, soldering new ones to the old wires is fiddly and fraught with potential problems.
While the comm end bracket is off, clean it internally and drop some fresh engine oil into the bush and leave it to soak overnight. Also lube the drive end bush in the nose of the starter with engine oil and let soak.

If memory serves you don't have a lathe so clean the comm up with a length of emery tape using the technique where you fold it round the comm (in a long thin "U" shape) and alternately pull each tail of it with one hand while holding taught with the other. If you have a junior hacksaw blade, use that to undercut the plastic between the comm segments so the plastic is ~0.5-1.0mm below the copper segments and give the comm a final clean after.
Obviously clean all other terminals etc while you're at it, if you want to clean the solenoid plunger as well, remove the two or three (usually) countersunk Pozidriv screws holding the solenoid body to the D/E bracket and pull the body off the plunger. Clean the plunger and inside the body where the plunger slides - do not grease!

You can clean and lube the yoke with a little lithium grease, likewise the flutes on the armature shaft where the starter pinion slides along and a bit of grease where the plunger engages with the yoke. Don't lube the pinion as you are likely to make the one-way clutch slip.

Reassembly is accomplished by the method known as "Haynes it" - rebuilding is the reversal of strip down. You can bench test it in the vice using a slave battery, a pair of jump leads, screwdriver or similar and a piece of old batten. Connect the jump leads with -ve to the vice (holding the starter body) and +ve to the top terminal on the solenoid. Use the screwdriver to jump from the +ve terminal on the solenoid to the exciter terminal and the starter should engage and run. Put one end of the old batten on the bench and with the starter running, push upwards against the pinion teeth. THis will load the starter up to prove it's capable of a reasonable load and also check the one-way clutch isn't slipping in the pinion. If all is good, refit to GAM and test in the ultimate test bay.

Relax and enjoy a clebratory beverage!

Originally Posted by VolvoRoyS

If it is a pre-engage starter this will spin the motor but it won't engage the flywheel in my experience. As you may know with a pre-engage starter motor, the pinion is levered into mesh before contacts inside the solenoid touch and energise the starter. Again, in my experience this sounds like a failing solenoid; those contacts take quite a beating. I have successfully taken a solenoid apart and cleaned up the contacts and put it together again, or just buy a new solenoid.

Roy

Originally Posted by Othen

So, das wichtigste zuerst...

... always do the cheapest and easiest things first: I've just taken the input and output leads off the solenoid input post and given them a good scrub up - the battery lead was a bit mucky. While they were off I gave the top side of the starter a good clean with brake cleaner, the terminals a good scrub up with some contact cleaner and a copper wire brush.

I've just tried the motor car and it started very easily, then repeated it 4 more times. It is possible that a bit of spring cleaning has fixed the problem and one poor connection took the starter cct just outside its error budget for voltage (and therefore current). The problem with intermittent faults is that I won't know whether I've fixed the issue or not for a while.

I hope there will not be any more to follow... :-)

So, GAM's intermittent starter issue returned yesterday - I'd cleaned up all the external contacts previously and that seemed to work fine for several weeks, but there was clearly something else wrong. The money was either on the brushes/commutator (Dave's idea) or the solenoid (Roy's).

The starter only takes a few minutes to remove (it was easiest to unbolt to clutch slave completely and let it dangle out of the way), to reveal the starter:



It came apart easily in the vice: oil filter grips are handy to get the end off:



All 4 of the brushes seemed to be in good condition and had lots of wear left yet:



The commutator didn't look too bad either, so I just gave it a clean up with some fine emery paper (as per Dave's advice) and the lands a clean out with a small screwdriver:



I didn't test anything (electrically) but it seemed the brushes and commutator were in good order and unlikely to be causing the problem, so I turned my attention to the solenoid. I'd acquired a NOS replacement a few weeks ago (I think for only £20) so I replaced it:



There was nothing obviously wrong with the old one - apart from being old.

The starter was soon back together, cleaned up and with a new solenoid:



The whole scheme was pretty quick (an hour or so I suppose) and the motor started without problems. We'll have to see whether that cures the intermittent fault. It is hard to know whether cleaning up the commutator or changing the solenoid might have been the solution (assuming the issue is banished), but thank you for the advice chaps.

Alan

PS. Happy Empire Day!

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

So, GAM's intermittent starter issue returned yesterday - I'd cleaned up all the external contacts previously and that seemed to work fine for several weeks, but there was clearly something else wrong. The money was either on the brushes/commutator (Dave's idea) or the solenoid (Roy's).

The starter only takes a few minutes to remove (it was easiest to unbolt to clutch slave completely and let it dangle out of the way), to reveal the starter:



It came apart easily in the vice: oil filter grips are handy to get the end off:



All 4 of the brushes seemed to be in good condition and had lots of wear left yet:



The commutator didn't look too bad either, so I just gave it a clean up with some fine emery paper (as per Dave's advice) and the lands a clean out with a small screwdriver:



I didn't test anything (electrically) but it seemed the brushes and commutator were in good order and unlikely to be causing the problem, so I turned my attention to the solenoid. I'd acquired a NOS replacement a few weeks ago (I think for only £20) so I replaced it:



There was nothing obviously wrong with the old one - apart from being old.

The starter was soon back together, cleaned up and with a new solenoid:



The whole scheme was pretty quick (an hour or so I suppose) and the motor started without problems. We'll have to see whether that cures the intermittent fault. It is hard to know whether cleaning up the commutator or changing the solenoid might have been the solution (assuming the issue is banished), but thank you for the advice chaps.

Alan

PS. Happy Empire Day!

The comm and brushes look surprisingly good considering Alan - i'd hazard a guess it's been repaired before but the solenoid wasn't touched. Have a look at the solder joints on the solenoid end cap, you may find evidence of dry joints there which would cause the problem.
By the way, did you clean the solenoid plunger while you had the solenoid off? Also the Comm End Bracket shouldn't need water pump pliers, it should just lift off fairly easily. Worst case scenario, a small flat-bladed screwdriver in the drain hole between it and the main body of the motor is usually enough to lever it up and away.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The comm and brushes look surprisingly good considering Alan - i'd hazard a guess it's been repaired before but the solenoid wasn't touched. Have a look at the solder joints on the solenoid end cap, you may find evidence of dry joints there which would cause the problem.
By the way, did you clean the solenoid plunger while you had the solenoid off? Also the Comm End Bracket shouldn't need water pump pliers, it should just lift off fairly easily. Worst case scenario, a small flat-bladed screwdriver in the drain hole between it and the main body of the motor is usually enough to lever it up and away.

I doubt very much that the brushes are 59 years old, so they were probably replaced in the past 2 or 3 decades. The solenoid did look like it had not been touched, I noticed the insulated barrier between the two large terminals was broken off - perhaps age, vibration... who knows?

The exciter terminal on the old solenoid looked a bit scabby, that could have been the problem I suppose. It wasn't really worth investigating though, the new one works perfectly, and I think I discern that the starter is spinning a bit faster on start-up (that may be wishful thinking on my part).

Everything got a clean up - hopefully that will be good for a couple of decades now. I'm not to worried about the commutator cover needing a nudge with the oil filter grips to get it moving - it had probably been in the same place for something between one and six decades.

I've just been out for a test drive with several starts - all seems fine. I'll have to wait until everything is cold in the morn to give it a proper test.

:-)

Alan

PS. I'm pretty sure I won't need it, but Amazon sells the correct brush holder set for my starter (001311001) by AS-PL (SBH0122S) for only £20.08:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AS-PL-SBH01.../dp/B08WLZ3TVD

[Laird Scooby]

Bit of a throwback to the tyre changer Alan, this video shows the idea of a duck head on the tyre changer.

https://youtu.be/wgS0ANCLaek

I used a different duck head, one that doesn't "cup" the edge of the wheel but does the same job.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07LD3DLNP

As for the arm, i made it out of scraps i had laying around and an offcut of exhaust pipe shimmed with dog food tins and prevented from up/down movement on the centre post with modified exhaust clamps.













As the saying is a picture paints 1000 words, that's about 6000 words for you above!

As for the bead clamp used in the video to prevent the tyre rolling round the rim when being refitted, i've not used them, i just apply downward pressure to the tyre diametrically opposite the duck head to start with the refitting - once it's going, the tyre grips the rim anyway until it's completely on.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Bit of a throwback to the tyre changer Alan, this video shows the idea of a duck head on the tyre changer.

https://youtu.be/wgS0ANCLaek

I used a different duck head, one that doesn't "cup" the edge of the wheel but does the same job.

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07LD3DLNP

As for the arm, i made it out of scraps i had laying around and an offcut of exhaust pipe shimmed with dog food tins and prevented from up/down movement on the centre post with modified exhaust clamps.

...

As the saying is a picture paints 1000 words, that's about 6000 words for you above!

As for the bead clamp used in the video to prevent the tyre rolling round the rim when being refitted, i've not used them, i just apply downward pressure to the tyre diametrically opposite the duck head to start with the refitting - once it's going, the tyre grips the rim anyway until it's completely on.

What a cool video that is. It is slightly surprising that some enterprising (probably Chinese) chap has not put that into manufacture.

I found this demount duck head on Amazon for only £7.06 Dave:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANON-Chang...-40&th=1&psc=1

... at that price it might be worth getting just to experiment. Can you see any reason why this wouldn't work? If not I'll order one and fabricate something similar to the You Tube one out of bits in my scrap box.

:-)

Alan

PS. I've gone ahead and ordered the 28mm Sanon duck head Dave - it was only £7 delivered (and I suppose if it turned out to be unsuitable I could return it for free with Amazon Prime - although I'm hardly likely to bother at that price). When it arrives I'll have a look for some scrap to weld up into the support bracket. I'll need to find some sort of cone for centreing as well (the chap in the video used an old bearing race). I enjoy projects like this :-)

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

What a cool video that is. It is slightly surprising that some enterprising (probably Chinese) chap has not put that into manufacture.

I found this demount duck head on Amazon for only £7.06 Dave:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANON-Chang...-40&th=1&psc=1

... at that price it might be worth getting just to experiment. Can you see any reason why this wouldn't work? If not I'll order one and fabricate something similar to the You Tube one out of bits in my scrap box.

:-)

Alan

PS. I've gone ahead and ordered the 28mm Sanon duck head Dave - it was only £7 delivered (and I suppose if it turned out to be unsuitable I could return it for free with Amazon Prime - although I'm hardly likely to bother at that price). When it arrives I'll have a look for some scrap to weld up into the support bracket. I'll need to find some sort of cone for centreing as well (the chap in the video used an old bearing race). I enjoy projects like this :-)

That's the same as mine Alan except mine has the 30mm hole for mounting - i had some 30mm exhaust tube floating around so bought the duck head to suit.
Don't forget the arm needs to swivel around the centre post, i used an old LPG mixer to centralise it but i also then drilled and tapped the original changer wheel bed (that the wheel sits on) to go through two diametrically opposite holes for 4 stud 114.3PCD and 3 holes for 5 stud 108PCD (Volvo and Jag) at M12 x 1.5 then bought some long wheel studs M12 x 1.5 to hold the wheel in place. You can see two of the wheel bolts in the 114.3PCD holes (when i took the pics i hadn't done the extras for the 5 stud) if you look at my pics.

Don't forget to turn the arm anticlockwise (viewed from above) to remove/refit the tyre, the duck heads are designed for automatic tyre changers that rotate the wheel clockwise (from above) but as the wheel is stationary, the arm has to move the opposite way.

Hoping at some stage to motorise mine, perhaps with an old car alternator and a 3-phase e-bike driver. Can't decide whether to fix the arm or the wheel for that though....................

PS i did mine back in 2019 after seeing a "No-Mar" tyre changing bar on YT and searching for the bits to make one and it crossed my mind the duck head could be fitted to a bar that swivels around the cente post on the changer. I'm still working on a bead breaker that works using 8" nylon wheels to push the tyre bead down and runs on the same bar as the duck head.