General: VW Diesel Scandal

[terrytpot]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

I dint think the damage to the VAG brands will be that great, notice they have decided to pin it on Volkswagen but some Audi were affected too.

Wait till the dust settles...the yank's have never been shy when it comes to litigation and the world generally follows their lead in that respect (if they think they can swing it)...their share value tumbled so much over the last few days I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is the start of their demise, I also ( as do most I speak to) fully expect this unfortunate state of affairs to befall other manufacturers as they do have a nasty habit of sharing engines...the PSA DW10 springs to mind as used by Peugot,Citreon,Fiat,Suzuki,Ford and (gulp) Volvo!

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by terrytpot

I also ( as do most I speak to) fully expect this unfortunate state of affairs to befall other manufacturers as they do have a nasty habit of sharing engines...the PSA DW10 springs to mind as used by Peugot,Citreon,Fiat,Suzuki,Ford and (gulp) Volvo!

And BMW Mini.... I'm sure there might be litigation and as you say they seem to be addicted to it in the US but I would imagine the German lawyers would know how to spin that out for 10 years or more...

The curious thing for me was I never thought the U.S. went for diesel cars - I worked in California in 2008/2009 and the it was very rare to see a diesel pump on a forecourt... Sorry "Gas station". I also understood this to by why most hybrid cars like the Prius had petrol, not Diesel engines.

[TWPC]

Originally Posted by gmonag

Does anyone know if Volvo are likely to be caught out the same way as VW regarding "defeating" emmissions tests?

Greg

Impossible to say.

VW's situation is very specific.

The US, the highest margin market for all car makers, is the one in which they have consistently failed since the demise of the original Beetle. After a good year in 2012, they haven't really followed up in market share improvement despite the construction of their first US factory in Tennessee and for the first time designing a US-specific model, the US Passat. This was, apparently, one of the main reasons for the removal of Ferdinand Piech from his position as chairman of the supervisory board in April.

In search of a USP, they have been pushing the idea of 'clean diesel' - small 2.0 litre 4 cyl diesels that meet the highest US emissions standards at minimum inconvenience to the driver. This means either not using a device that injects urea (known as AdBlue or DEF - diesel exhaust fluid - for neutralising nitrogen ocide emissions) into the exhaust or only having a small reservoir of the stuff. I think the Beetle, Golf and Jetta did not have DEF reservoirs while the Passat does, but it is only 4.6 gallons capacity compared to BMW at 6.1 gallons for the 3 & 5 series and Merc at 7.5 gallons for the E-class. These reservoirs have to be refilled every 15-20,000 miles or so, I think.

The point is that it is incredibly difficult to get any diesel through the US emission standards, especially without a urea injection system. The fact that VW achieved it for not only a car with a smaller than average reservoir that didn't have to be refilled any more frequently than its competitors but also for small, cheap cars WITHOUT any such urea injection system was 'remarkable'.

They did it by cheating, with a software patch that detected when a car entered a test cycle. Conditions that would have had to be met to switch the engine into 'test cycle' mode could have included the rear wheels being stationary, no movement in the steering and either zero or exceptionally smooth accelerator movement. In other words, unlike old fashioned ECU 'cheat' modes that, for example, would switch the engine into a lean mode when the car runs at a constant 56 mph (an old UK fuel economy measure), VW's 'test cycle' mode would have been absolutely impossible for a driver to replicate on a public road.

Unfortunately, when not in 'test cycle mode' and with the ECU freeing the engine up to produce normal/advertised amounts of power VW's 4-cyl diesels were reported to be emitting 20-40 times the amount of nitrogen oxides permitted in the test.

Back to the original question: no other car maker was trying as hard as VW to push small diesels in the US market or had as much weighing on the outcome so they are much less likely to have committed the same sin.

[TWPC]

Originally Posted by ifzal123

My nephew has VW Passat CC GTD, just gone 3 years old. The Road tax bracket is unlikely to phase him since his car tax is £110 p.a, How high could it go £200-£300. He adores the car and would have still have purchased it even if the emissions were higher. He is more annoyed at the fact the a major brand has been deceitful. I suspect most owners wont be demanding refunds but will take this deception into account when considering a VW in the future.

1. The deception VW committed was related to US-emission testing that focuses on nitrogen oxides and particulates in addition to CO2, whereas UK car tax is based only on CO2 emissions. We don't know if anu car makers have been cheating on the European, CO2-specific tests. Maybe they have, but maybe they all have and they are all about as effective as each other.

I don't think there is any evidence yet to suggest that European VWs are any more likely to be penalised in a 'CO2 standards shake-down' than any other brand.

Presumably, the UK govt decides how much money it wants to raise from car tax and sets the bands accordingly. I wouldn't have thought your nephew's car's road tax bill will go up more than if he owned any other brand.

2. VW's deceit will be costly for them globally I think.

Cars are significant commitments for most people and we don't take kindly to a seller who lies to us.

I imagine second hand values will take a hit and consequently leasing rates will rise.

[Ducklakeview]

Originally Posted by TWPC

Impossible to say.

VW's situation is very specific.

The US, the highest margin market for all car makers, is the one in which they have consistently failed since the demise of the original Beetle. After a good year in 2012, they haven't really followed up in market share improvement despite the construction of their first US factory in Tennessee and for the first time designing a US-specific model, the US Passat. This was, apparently, one of the main reasons for the removal of Ferdinand Piech from his position as chairman of the supervisory board in April.

In search of a USP, they have been pushing the idea of 'clean diesel' - small 2.0 litre 4 cyl diesels that meet the highest US emissions standards at minimum inconvenience to the driver. This means either not using a device that injects urea (known as AdBlue or DEF - diesel exhaust fluid - for neutralising nitrogen ocide emissions) into the exhaust or only having a small reservoir of the stuff. I think the Beetle, Golf and Jetta did not have DEF reservoirs while the Passat does, but it is only 4.6 gallons capacity compared to BMW at 6.1 gallons for the 3 & 5 series and Merc at 7.5 gallons for the E-class. These reservoirs have to be refilled every 15-20,000 miles or so, I think.

The point is that it is incredibly difficult to get any diesel through the US emission standards, especially without a urea injection system. The fact that VW achieved it for not only a car with a smaller than average reservoir that didn't have to be refilled any more frequently than its competitors but also for small, cheap cars WITHOUT any such urea injection system was 'remarkable'.

They did it by cheating, with a software patch that detected when a car entered a test cycle. Conditions that would have had to be met to switch the engine into 'test cycle' mode could have included the rear wheels being stationary, no movement in the steering and either zero or exceptionally smooth accelerator movement. In other words, unlike old fashioned ECU 'cheat' modes that, for example, would switch the engine into a lean mode when the car runs at a constant 56 mph (an old UK fuel economy measure), VW's 'test cycle' mode would have been absolutely impossible for a driver to replicate on a public road.

Unfortunately, when not in 'test cycle mode' and with the ECU freeing the engine up to produce normal/advertised amounts of power VW's 4-cyl diesels were reported to be emitting 20-40 times the amount of nitrogen oxides permitted in the test.

Back to the original question: no other car maker was trying as hard as VW to push small diesels in the US market or had as much weighing on the outcome so they are much less likely to have committed the same sin.

Originally Posted by TWPC

1. The deception VW committed was related to US-emission testing that focuses on nitrogen oxides and particulates in addition to CO2, whereas UK car tax is based only on CO2 emissions. We don't know if anu car makers have been cheating on the European, CO2-specific tests. Maybe they have, but maybe they all have and they are all about as effective as each other.

I don't think there is any evidence yet to suggest that European VWs are any more likely to be penalised in a 'CO2 standards shake-down' than any other brand.

Presumably, the UK govt decides how much money it wants to raise from car tax and sets the bands accordingly. I wouldn't have thought your nephew's car's road tax bill will go up more than if he owned any other brand.

2. VW's deceit will be costly for them globally I think.

Cars are significant commitments for most people and we don't take kindly to a seller who lies to us.

I imagine second hand values will take a hit and consequently leasing rates will rise.

Interesting reading..

Mike

[Gurj]

The story continues to develop and VW have admitted using similar tricks in the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34345210

I wonder if those manufacturers not cheating the system will have lost business due to it...

With different CO2 Tax brackets, car buyers are clearly influenced. A better test more aligned to real driving conditions and carried out independantly is called for.

[GreenBrick]

Originally Posted by ifzal123

My nephew has VW Passat CC GTD, just gone 3 years old. The Road tax bracket is unlikely to phase him since his car tax is £110 p.a, How high could it go £200-£300. He adores the car and would have still have purchased it even if the emissions were higher. He is more annoyed at the fact the a major brand has been deceitful. I suspect most owners wont be demanding refunds but will take this deception into account when considering a VW in the future.

Ask him how much he is putting aside for when the DPF needs replacing. 3K didn't cover it for my friend's Passat.... Get saving....

[TruckbusUK]

Originally Posted by GreenBrick

Ask him how much he is putting aside for when the DPF needs replacing. 3K didn't cover it for my friend's Passat.... Get saving....

We have the same car in the family and had ours done and the local VW dealer (Uncle Arnold) due to damage rather than the DPF failing and the cost was £1200'ish using VAG parts .... what did he have done that cost £3K plus? Curious!

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by GreenBrick

Ask him how much he is putting aside for when the DPF needs replacing. 3K didn't cover it for my friend's Passat.... Get saving....

I've got a Passat 177 Sport Estate as a company car - it got to 92,000 miles in 26 months without a single fault - not even a bulb. Then the aircon compressor siezed.... Not sure what the bill was but the lease company want to take it back now before it gets to 100k. It is a very good car though.

[Tannaton]

Given the newspaper headlines today on this, I can just imagine the TV adverts in a month time at either end of Jeremy Kyle.... "If you have owned a VW in the past 7 years... you could be entitled to thousands...." etc.