Volvo Community Forum. The Forums of the Volvo Owners Club

Forum Rules Volvo Owners Club About VOC Volvo Gallery Links Volvo History Volvo Press
Go Back   Volvo Owners Club Forum > "Technical Topics" > 850 / S70 & V70 '96-'99 / C70 '97-'05 General

Notices

850 / S70 & V70 '96-'99 / C70 '97-'05 General Forum for the 850 and P80-platform 70-series models

Information
  • VOC Members: There is no login facility using your VOC membership number or the details from page 3 of the club magazine. You need to register in the normal way
  • AOL Customers: Make sure you check the 'Remember me' check box otherwise the AOL system may log you out during the session. This is a known issue with AOL.
  • AOL, Yahoo and Plus.net users. Forum owners such as us are finding that AOL, Yahoo and Plus.net are blocking a lot of email generated from forums. This may mean your registration activation and other emails will not get to you, or they may appear in your spam mailbox

Thread Informations

Head Gasket failed, head off.. what next?

Views : 731

Replies : 8

Users Viewing This Thread :  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Jan 13th, 2022, 19:39   #1
dinky1
Volvo lump in a renault!!
 
dinky1's Avatar
 

Last Online: Jan 11th, 2024 19:06
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Default Head Gasket failed, head off.. what next?

Hi Guys!

I've been absent for several years now - sorry about that - but i still have the safrane parked up outside and up on axle stands.

So last time i was here i mentioned that it had HGF. This was confirmed with cylinder pressures being all out and the dreaded mayo - even after an oil change. I was gutted.

Anyway i put in the spare engine, that ran reasonably well for a while, then decided also to go the same way - white mayo, coolant loss etc. FFS.

Anyway i found the problem which was causing the cooling fans to malfunction - an airlock. I tipped the car up on it's side one day to take photos of the fuel lines and then the fans started working the next day. They then stopped again so it's an airlock in there and having now found the radiator cap needs to be pulled out not just turned 90degrees.... urgh..

Right so the replacement engine has HGF. I've had the head off today, the stretch bolts have rust on the threads. The gasket itself has lots of lovely mayo at the back of cylinders 3,4 & 5.

Cylinders don't seem too bad, couple of specks of mild rust and thats about it.










So whats my options here?
Will the stretch bolt holes be screwed due to the rust?
Also if i get the head skimmed, will the camshafts be ok? - i read years ago on a site elsewhere that a lady had hers snap after a skim..

I can't really replace the head as renault charge silly money for them and they are modified - the renault version has a large engine mount on top that the volvo doesn't have and the bolts go directly into the head:



Also as you can see in this next picture, on the gearbox end of the engine is a lifting loop - which unlike the timing side, is attached directly to the head.



I can't help but wonder now, is the way i've crane'd these in and out the cause? - I've always removed it with the gearbox attached - extra weight on that side of the lower engine & loop / stretch bolts on that side of the engine - which of course as you see in my photos above, are the 3 cylinders with mayo on the gasket.



So whats my way forwards here?

Should I skim? Should autobox somehow be removed first in the future? or should i wrap a chain under it and lift like that to avoid strain on the stretch bolts?

If i skim, will the camshafts survive?

So many if's and buts... sorry lol..
__________________
Renault Safrane 2.5 with the Volvo B5254FS 850 2.5 20v engine. It's the same block using Volvo parts but with a few 'adjustments'
dinky1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 18th, 2022, 10:14   #2
winsox
Senior Member
 
winsox's Avatar
 

Last Online: Mar 25th, 2024 12:20
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Castleford
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinky1 View Post
Hi Guys!

I've been absent for several years now - sorry about that - but i still have the safrane parked up outside and up on axle stands.

So last time i was here i mentioned that it had HGF. This was confirmed with cylinder pressures being all out and the dreaded mayo - even after an oil change. I was gutted.

Anyway i put in the spare engine, that ran reasonably well for a while, then decided also to go the same way - white mayo, coolant loss etc. FFS.

Anyway i found the problem which was causing the cooling fans to malfunction - an airlock. I tipped the car up on it's side one day to take photos of the fuel lines and then the fans started working the next day. They then stopped again so it's an airlock in there and having now found the radiator cap needs to be pulled out not just turned 90degrees.... urgh..

Right so the replacement engine has HGF. I've had the head off today, the stretch bolts have rust on the threads. The gasket itself has lots of lovely mayo at the back of cylinders 3,4 & 5.

Cylinders don't seem too bad, couple of specks of mild rust and thats about it.










So whats my options here?
Will the stretch bolt holes be screwed due to the rust?
Also if i get the head skimmed, will the camshafts be ok? - i read years ago on a site elsewhere that a lady had hers snap after a skim..

I can't really replace the head as renault charge silly money for them and they are modified - the renault version has a large engine mount on top that the volvo doesn't have and the bolts go directly into the head:



Also as you can see in this next picture, on the gearbox end of the engine is a lifting loop - which unlike the timing side, is attached directly to the head.



I can't help but wonder now, is the way i've crane'd these in and out the cause? - I've always removed it with the gearbox attached - extra weight on that side of the lower engine & loop / stretch bolts on that side of the engine - which of course as you see in my photos above, are the 3 cylinders with mayo on the gasket.



So whats my way forwards here?

Should I skim? Should autobox somehow be removed first in the future? or should i wrap a chain under it and lift like that to avoid strain on the stretch bolts?

If i skim, will the camshafts survive?

So many if's and buts... sorry lol..
Hello there

You are lifting it fine, the volvo lift point on the back of the engine also connects to the cylinder head, but also the base. I would not worry about this.

Check the head and if needed have it skimmed, personally id just skim it.

You will see bits of rust in it as its been sat long. Just flush it all out when you can, especially coolant passages.
__________________
Current Cars

Volvo 850R Estate 1996 Manual Conversion
SLK AMG 350 R172
winsox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 19th, 2022, 07:34   #3
CNGBiFuel
Classic P80 1999 BiFuel
 

Last Online: Mar 6th, 2024 01:34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: 48mph Middle Lane M4
Default

That's how I lift mine. Even have the same cheapo 'sale-ends-soon' - "To you twenty-two sobs" load-leveller. Skimming is always cheap. It's the hassle getting it set-up to do it, et al that you'd want to avoid. However it'd be wiser to bite the bullet. I'm about to do one myself. New rings etc whist I'm on. About now, RobertDIY is your best mate.
__________________
Bifuel V70 Classic 1999 [The Old Grumpy in the Corner, "When I was a lad... blah, bl**dy blah."]

Last edited by CNGBiFuel; Jan 19th, 2022 at 07:45.
CNGBiFuel is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CNGBiFuel For This Useful Post:
Old Jan 19th, 2022, 07:57   #4
Familyman 90
The Brit Brick
 
Familyman 90's Avatar
 

Last Online: Aug 13th, 2023 10:39
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Warwickshire
Default

Get the head tested for trueness - if there's any variation then get it skimmed.
__________________
2005 C70 2.4T Collection convertible. 40,000 mile sunny day toy.
Familyman 90 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Familyman 90 For This Useful Post:
Old Jan 19th, 2022, 13:46   #5
Clan
Experienced Member
 
Clan's Avatar
 

Last Online: Yesterday 22:26
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: L/H side
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Familyman 90 View Post
Get the head tested for trueness - if there's any variation then get it skimmed.
The problem is Renault use their own gaskets poor quality compared to the volvo ones . volvo use green gaskets and Renault cheap black ones which crumble after a while .That maybe what let air into the cooling system.
__________________
My comments are only based on my opinions and vast experience .
Clan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Clan For This Useful Post:
Old Jan 22nd, 2022, 13:07   #6
dinky1
Volvo lump in a renault!!
 
dinky1's Avatar
 

Last Online: Jan 11th, 2024 19:06
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Default

Hi Guys!

Sorry i've only just seen your replies, did check a day or two after posting but there was nothing so i figured there was no interest - clearly i got that wrong!

Anyway i've put it in for skimming and had the head washed out of all the oil and shavings in another garages special head washing machine. He checked the head and then the cam shaft bearings and he said the bearings are still straight and it should be ok - phew!!! It came out looking a hell of a lot cleaner - i wish i'd taken the rocker cover and the rest of the engine in too!

After posting i think i might have found another serious cause of this engine going the same way as the first. The ecu has been failing to turn on the cooling fans. I was asked one day to take photos of the fuel lines for another safrane owner so i jacked it up at a steep angle and got snapping. The next day the cooling system ran wonderfully for the first time in around 4 years and continued doing so for 1.5 hours until i cut the engine. Day after that, dead again so i figured there was an air lock in there somewhere that had shifted. The radiator cap has always been an issue on these and has stumped other safrane owners. It turns 90 degrees to the open position but the manual left out something - you then have to put grips on the thing and pull it out to expose a big air hole So now it looks like i had a load of air trapped in there via the rad that was buggering up the coolant sensor - even though the dashboard was still showing the temperature.

@Clan yes i've heard about the gaskets before. This one has come apart with the green ones though including for the thermostat housing so renault have done a half decent job on this engine - kinda. I'm in touch with the volvo dealers by email who are trying to put together a replacement gasket set for me. There is some confusion as to what engine it is as it was supposed to be a B5244S going by the 2435CC /168hp thing and the rest of the specs however the dealer said it can't be as it wasn't used for an 850 so it's now looking to be more like a B5254S or B5254FS - both of which are 2435CC too - odd! What renault have done to this engine though is to modify it in a few ways - the cam pulley wheels have been swapped (exhaust is now inlet and vice versa) meaning the timing marks are useless. The timing cover is also different (still stamed "Made by volvo" though) so the timing marks are still redundant anyway. There is a mount on top of the engine with a bolt going into the head at a really weird angle (just to ensure you can't use a volvo head - swines) and they've given it a different lifting loop above the gearbox than the volvo units, inlet and outlet manifolds are also different along with the recirculation system. There may be other differences too but none that i can remember off the top of my head. You'd definitely recognise it as a volvo if you saw it but you'd also see immediate differences too.

@CNGBiFuel I got fed up with that load leveller. It's good for smaller engines but for the 5 pot volvo it just wasn't long enough so as you can see i had to come up with my own extension to it (works very well). The original leveller kept bending the lifting loop inwards over the rocker cover. An old friend found me a bit of steel bar in his scrap metal collection (RIP Mike old pal) which i then cleaned up with a wire brush on the grinder, cut to length, drilled holes and smothered in hammerite. It's been a great tool and was the best thing he could leave me with to remember him by. I had wanted to simply make a longer load leveller but trying to find the same threaded bar to go through the sliding mechanism was impossible. None of the engineering companies round here could replicate it (only syaing "years ago when we had the right tools we could have done that for you but not now.."). I even contacted the manufacturers and they were very hostile towards me over it with one reply simply stating "dont want to help you" - charming!

Anyway I've got the skimmed head in the garage upside down sitting on polystyrene and wrapped in bubble wrap with oil on the surface to me mounted over the cylinders (the lower half of the engine is also greased). I'm just waiting on the final details for gaskets, stretch bolts etc so that i can crack on and start rebuilding it.Thanks for the sterling advice, i will take some pics and keep you updated!
__________________
Renault Safrane 2.5 with the Volvo B5254FS 850 2.5 20v engine. It's the same block using Volvo parts but with a few 'adjustments'
dinky1 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dinky1 For This Useful Post:
Old Jan 24th, 2022, 09:01   #7
CNGBiFuel
Classic P80 1999 BiFuel
 

Last Online: Mar 6th, 2024 01:34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: 48mph Middle Lane M4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinky1 View Post
@CNGBiFuel I got fed up with that load leveller. It's good for smaller engines but for the 5 pot volvo it just wasn't long enough so as you can see i had to come up with my own extension to it (works very well). The original leveller kept bending the lifting loop inwards over the rocker cover. ....

None of the engineering companies round here could replicate it (only syaing "years ago when we had the right tools we could have done that for you but not now.."). I even contacted the manufacturers and they were very hostile towards me over it with one reply simply stating "dont want to help you" - charming!
I'd imagine using a crane with less reach than mine, would place the chains at angles with lift-loops under undue stress. Thing is, it cost £22, it did the job - what's not to like?

Are we surprised engineering companies didn't look too hard? Even with the kit, and set-up, this one-off job wants 5-6 hours, or best part of day's work. Labour alone, I know what most of us want for a day's work, how about you?

It's a £20-25 item. You say you spoke to the manufacturers, are you sure of this? - I suspect you spoke to the distributor. If you did speak to the manufacturer, the courier bill alone from China will be £70-80. It's not clear what surprised you or why you were expecting much else. Or, even if they could, why you thought any of them could help you with a price you'd want to pay?

We both should have bought this... New it's a £80+ proper item. I got lucky and paid less for it than we both did for the cheapy. Then again - new - it sells for a proper price.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Load-leveller.jpg (65.1 KB, 7 views)
__________________
Bifuel V70 Classic 1999 [The Old Grumpy in the Corner, "When I was a lad... blah, bl**dy blah."]

Last edited by CNGBiFuel; Jan 24th, 2022 at 09:13.
CNGBiFuel is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CNGBiFuel For This Useful Post:
Old Jan 28th, 2022, 18:13   #8
Jod T5
Phoenix from the ashes
 
Jod T5's Avatar
 

Last Online: Mar 19th, 2024 10:13
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Finchingfield
Default

Without seeing the said vehicle I wont comment other than to say I feel your pain brother!


Cheers,


Jod
__________________
Dum Spiro Spero
VOC 20419
Jod T5 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jod T5 For This Useful Post:
Old Feb 12th, 2022, 13:44   #9
dinky1
Volvo lump in a renault!!
 
dinky1's Avatar
 

Last Online: Jan 11th, 2024 19:06
Join Date: May 2010
Location: England
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGBiFuel View Post
I'd imagine using a crane with less reach than mine, would place the chains at angles with lift-loops under undue stress. Thing is, it cost £22, it did the job - what's not to like?
The crane is long reach (sorry my pic kinda cut that off) and can do 2 tonnes but i must admit the engine and box always seeems like it's slightly pushing it. If i can get the replacement engine running i don't really want to use the crane again lol - i'll keep it but i can't be bothered using it. I've not decided what to do with the original engine yet - i still have that in the garage on a trolley with the gearbox.

The leveller cost a bit more than the normal cheaper ones - paid £35 for it due to the extra weight capacity - 750Kgs. Admittedly from the pics you can't really see it but i didn't spare the expense, i bought the best tools i could at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGBiFuel View Post
Are we surprised engineering companies didn't look too hard? Even with the kit, and set-up, this one-off job wants 5-6 hours, or best part of day's work. Labour alone, I know what most of us want for a day's work, how about you?
Dunno, that long black piece you see under it came from a guy who ran an engineering business and is basically the same as the original shorter bit. All i really need is the screw to be replicated and i could transfer it over - he openly admitted he could do it easily but didn't like "car stuff" (he was a steam engine guy - he'd work on tank barrells etc and was well known across the county for his skills) Ask him anything car related and he didn't want to know. I felt honoured he sorted me that bit of metal but he openly said that was as far as he'd go with helping. Great bloke, he just didn't like getting involved with cars and didn't want to be dragged into them - and i fully understood that and accepted it. What i should have done was tell him i was workong on a 5 inch gauge garden steam engine and he'd have sorted it lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGBiFuel View Post
You say you spoke to the manufacturers, are you sure of this?
Yeah i tracked them down via alibaba or aliexpress, can't remember which now but they were the right people they just didn't want to get involved. It's just one of those things really. Anyway I worked around it, that's the main thing. Added a bit of extra height to the original which wasn't ideal but it works.
__________________
Renault Safrane 2.5 with the Volvo B5254FS 850 2.5 20v engine. It's the same block using Volvo parts but with a few 'adjustments'
dinky1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:57.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.