945 Niggles

[Laird Scooby]

A weird thought crossed my mind while reading your latest post Rick. If memory serves correctly the starter motor is on the drivers side of the engine on the B230 and the main earth from battery to engine is on the starter motor.

I'm wondering if perhaps that earth connection has either come loose, broken in the crimp terminal or nearby it and under normal circumstances still makes the circuit. However, on the over-run, the engine would naturally tip slightly towards the passenger side which may be just enough to break the connection. This could be made worse if the drivers side engine mount is loose, worn, broken or otherwise not doing its job.

All the evidence is pointing to something like this unless i've misunderstood what you've said about the rev counter - it would also occur going over level crossings that are bumpy or any other sudden change in speed including letting go of the loud pedal and sometimes even through normal road vibration.
Worth checking the earths anyway and also the lead that goes into the distributor for the signal to fire the coil - i had a break in one of the wires on one of mine but can't remember which where the cable went into the dizzy. Someone had refitted it incorrectly so it wasn't held into the dizzy properly so chafed the wiring.

[bluebrickrick]

Thanks Dave

An interesting idea, no sign of radio / lighting / instrument or other electrical disturbance at time of failure but had not considered the engine being at the other end of its radial movement while engine braking so will make sure of looking at any and all engine to chassis connections. My first thought, first occurrence, was loose HT or coil connection as the dizzy is so cramped to the bulkhead.

It is the minute or so disablement (with no sign or sound of a click etc before it restarts normally on the key) that is driving me nuts %(

Onwards & outwards

Rick

[Laird Scooby]

If memory serves correctly Rick the engine has a separate earth which is the one on the starter and the body is the earth for the rest of the electrical systems such as radio, lighting, instruments etc but if the rev counter dies with no flickering there won't be an earth to reference to so the output signal from the pick up in the dizzy will effectively be zero.

The solenoid on the starter won't operate without an earth either so no clicking from the starter. A quick test if you can manage it when it next happens is to carry a jump lead and jump from engine earth/starter body to battery -ve. If the car then starts and dies when you remove the jump lead you know you're in the ball park. If it keeps running it could be the kick from starting it has remade the loose connection but if it restarts quicker it should be a clue.

[bluebrickrick]

Starter solenoid engages and motor turns fine Dave, just no combustion results from turning the engine.

I had been labouring under the misaprehension that being a little earlier than my Wentworth this one did not have the fault reporting function - while having a firkle with a torch looking for the earth strap I found the display unit tiewrapped in a different position that I'd not noticed so guess what first task will be tomorrow if dry !

Had a look through the process and codes and there are two conditions associated with that throttle position switch / air bypass valve so even if there is no electrical fault, the valve sticking open when throttle depressed may not help, probably worth excavating cleaning and lubing just in case.

I fear a process of elimination is in progress

Thanks for your help & suggestions

Rick

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by bluebrickrick

Starter solenoid engages and motor turns fine Dave, just no combustion results from turning the engine.

I had been labouring under the misaprehension that being a little earlier than my Wentworth this one did not have the fault reporting function - while having a firkle with a torch looking for the earth strap I found the display unit tiewrapped in a different position that I'd not noticed so guess what first task will be tomorrow if dry !

Had a look through the process and codes and there are two conditions associated with that throttle position switch / air bypass valve so even if there is no electrical fault, the valve sticking open when throttle depressed may not help, probably worth excavating cleaning and lubing just in case.

I fear a process of elimination is in progress

Thanks for your help & suggestions

Rick

This is the bit that threw me Rick - "
It is the minute or so disablement (with no sign or sound of a click etc before it restarts normally on the key)" - i took that as the starter wasn't clicking or trying to turn the engine over.

Hopefully your fault reader will shed some light on the problem!

I have my prayer mat out for dry weather tomorrow, need to do a cooling system flush then put antifreeze in and change the plugs, check the HT system over and a few other minor jobs - oh yeah and an ATF part-change as well!

As you're just up the road from me, hopefully the weather will be kind to both of us!

[bluebrickrick]

Fault code shown was no speed input - well stationary there will not be ! so having had a few hours sifting through the FAQ's the likelyhood of my having a fuel pump / pump relay problem has floated high on the pile so while waiting for the wife to return the other day had the ashtray & lighter socket bay out, re checked fuses and located the pumps relay, left it open and had a stoppage on the way home, wiggling and rapping the relay brought a near instant restart

Had the relay out late this afternoon and discovered that I have a bodged motor !

There was (unseen) a bit of domestic mains wire as a shunt, one end of which remained in either the 86/2 or 87/2 socket of the relay (dark by the time and I'll need to recheck in daylight) but the other had ridden up with the relay pin and I've no idea where it was located. Having a pore over Mr Haynes' somewhat small & blurry wiring diags, there appears to be a socket-side shunt wired between 87/2 & 85 but what the heck you would want to connect 86/2 with I cannot fathom.

Anyhow I cracked open the relay and while there were no obvious dry joints I have resoldered them all, also excavated my box of spare relays and did the same to the fuel relay from there. After dinner I went through both of them with the meter and the one which came out looks to have a failed diode (one coil has a series diode one doesn't ??) the spare relay diode appears OK...

Hopefully tomorrow will give a result - as an observation for anyone else resoldering relay boards, the end of the wires did not flow properly (always use clean, fluxed electrical solder) until I ran a smooth file over them to reveal bright metal, if a joint has gone dry, without removing the old solder the wire end may be the only decent contact you make.

Watch this space - I hope

[Laird Scooby]

Hmmm, what a surprise that it's been bodged! Not! It's amazing how many bodges are floating around, the "space ship" bushes on my front suspension had been bodged with washers and some strange looking bolts to eliminate play - it also eliminated the caster angle meaning the self-centring didn't work correctly and so on.

Back to your relay, 85 and 86 are, by convention, relay coil terminals. It sounds like the piece of wire was in there to permanently feed one of the relay coils. I can't find a Volvo diagram but here's one for a Honda - it's similar in principle :

http://www.marklamond.co.uk/tech-hon...main-relay.htm

That relay does the same as the relay you've been pulling apart. You can see it has a series diode on each relay coil and it's there to eliminate back feeds when the ECU takes over control. You wouldn't want the ECU feeding the starter motor permanently for example!

Normally i use a soft-bristled brass wire brush to clean the solder before reflowing the joints and then (usually i add a little fresh solder and remove all the old stuff with a solder sucker before) remaking it with all new fresh solder.

Not sure if this will be help or hindrance, hopefully the former!

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by bluebrickrick

Fault code shown was no speed input - well stationary there will not be ! so having had a few hours sifting through the FAQ's the likelyhood of my having a fuel pump / pump relay problem has floated high on the pile so while waiting for the wife to return the other day had the ashtray & lighter socket bay out, re checked fuses and located the pumps relay, left it open and had a stoppage on the way home, wiggling and rapping the relay brought a near instant restart

Had the relay out late this afternoon and discovered that I have a bodged motor !

There was (unseen) a bit of domestic mains wire as a shunt, one end of which remained in either the 86/2 or 87/2 socket of the relay (dark by the time and I'll need to recheck in daylight) but the other had ridden up with the relay pin and I've no idea where it was located. Having a pore over Mr Haynes' somewhat small & blurry wiring diags, there appears to be a socket-side shunt wired between 87/2 & 85 but what the heck you would want to connect 86/2 with I cannot fathom.

Anyhow I cracked open the relay and while there were no obvious dry joints I have resoldered them all, also excavated my box of spare relays and did the same to the fuel relay from there. After dinner I went through both of them with the meter and the one which came out looks to have a failed diode (one coil has a series diode one doesn't ??) the spare relay diode appears OK...

Hopefully tomorrow will give a result - as an observation for anyone else resoldering relay boards, the end of the wires did not flow properly (always use clean, fluxed electrical solder) until I ran a smooth file over them to reveal bright metal, if a joint has gone dry, without removing the old solder the wire end may be the only decent contact you make.

Watch this space - I hope

Found this while generally trawling the site Rick, sounds like it might be useful for you :

http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=128896

There's a link to an external site and mention of non-start and speed sensor faults shown at the same time............

[bluebrickrick]

Thanks Dave

After my initial surprise I guessed it was a new wire laid down to the pump, until I twigged it was a relay contact to contact shunt.

Neither brass brush nor glass fibre brush were aggressive enough hence reverting to a file. I always finish with a brass brush to get the surplus flux off and if there is potential for damp a spray with some aerosol lacquer although it doesn't help if you need to re-resolder!

Having a bad day today so will avoid doing something irreversible due to inhibited thinking capacity.

Will check out your link instead

Thanks for sharing brain & experience folks this is one heck of a forum

[bluebrickrick]

Well its running but neither relay works without the hardwire link in the socket (which I eventually found the right configuration for), need to investigate that a bit further and need to pick up a known good relay just in case I've missed something.......

Thanks for all the tea, sympathy and sound advice folks

Rick