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Oil Sump plug thread worn

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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 11:44   #11
Rocinante
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c1800 View Post
The OP advised in post #1 that the vehicle has only been serviced at the same Volvo dealership since he bought it from them.
But he bought it at 2 years old, so potentially, it had it's first service or two from someone else.

Even taking this in to account though, it has had 11 or 12 services from them since anyone else has potentially touched it.
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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 11:58   #12
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Looks like your course of action is :
  1. Speak to the dealer again, and press your point.
  2. Talk to Volvo for their view.
  3. ]Finally, if no luck with either get an independent expert's view who will hopefully back your view point, which may ultimately involve a visit to small claims court though.

Be sure to let us know how you get on, as my Volvo has had 12 services, and would be interested to know if Volvo think I should have to account for a new sump in the near future.
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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 12:07   #13
Bob Meadows
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I've repaired similar by using a reducing bush (aluminum pan 1954 Riley)

The original drain hole is enlarged to take the reducer and once the thread is cleaned the same gets locked in place with the right Loctite.
You may be able to lock a bush into the existing thread (tapered threads are useful here)
This becomes a permanent fixing that can only be removed by heating to break the seal- drain plug goes in the bush becoming a normal fixture.

Done the above back in the 80s and still fine after many oil changes.

As already mentioned- tell the garage to shove it! but get compensated!
You can purchase repair plugs for such problems but I have no experience of these.
Good Luck.
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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 14:00   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante View Post
Looks like your course of action is :
  1. Speak to the dealer again, and press your point.
  2. Talk to Volvo for their view.
  3. ]Finally, if no luck with either get an independent expert's view who will hopefully back your view point, which may ultimately involve a visit to small claims court though.

Be sure to let us know how you get on, as my Volvo has had 12 services, and would be interested to know if Volvo think I should have to account for a new sump in the near future.
The first two of these are sensible enough, and we would hope mack625 did those.

I think there would be a huge problem in trying to pursue #3. Getting an expert opinion would be considerably expensive, and I doubt many engineers would be keen to sign up to something that might mean they would have to take a day to appear in court. I think the chances of convincing a county court judge that a part was defective or there had been negligence during the maintenance of a 13 year old car would be negligible. The burden of proof would be on the accuser, and the dealer's very convincing legal defence would be that he had only had the motor car in his care for perhaps 20-30 hours in the entire previous 13 years. During the rest of the time he had no control over it and anything could have happened.

Don't misunderstand me: I think the stripped thread was almost certainly due to a fitter in the dealer's employ overtightening the sump bolt - but I think that would be very difficult to demonstrate to a county court.

mack625 (the OP) hasn't come back on this one since the first post; I rather suspect he tried #1 (I hope that worked and the dealer agreed a contribution), and maybe #2, but then had realised #3 would probably cost more than £400 and was far from assured of success.

I hope mack625 does come back and let us know how this one unfolded.

Alan
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Last edited by Othen; Oct 21st, 2021 at 14:17. Reason: Grammar.
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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 14:06   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Meadows View Post
I've repaired similar by using a reducing bush (aluminum pan 1954 Riley)

The original drain hole is enlarged to take the reducer and once the thread is cleaned the same gets locked in place with the right Loctite.
You may be able to lock a bush into the existing thread (tapered threads are useful here)
This becomes a permanent fixing that can only be removed by heating to break the seal- drain plug goes in the bush becoming a normal fixture.

Done the above back in the 80s and still fine after many oil changes.

As already mentioned- tell the garage to shove it! but get compensated!
You can purchase repair plugs for such problems but I have no experience of these.
Good Luck.
I agree with you that a stripped thread would be repairable (I think a helicoil would be best), but as we discussed above, I doubt very much that a Volvo dealer would undertake a repair like that.

As was also discussed above, I don't think it would be possible to prove negligence to a county court, so unless the dealer is willing to stump up a goodwill payment (and on a 13 years old motor car) then compensation would be unlikely.

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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 15:59   #16
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Originally Posted by Othen View Post
The first two of these are sensible enough, and we would hope mack625 did those.

I think there would be a huge problem in trying to pursue #3. Getting an expert opinion would be considerably expensive, and I doubt many engineers would be keen to sign up to something that might mean they would have to take a day to appear in court. I think the chances of convincing a county court judge that a part was defective or there had been negligence during the maintenance of a 13 year old car would be negligible. The burden of proof would be on the accuser, and the dealer's very convincing legal defence would be that he had only had the motor car in his care for perhaps 20-30 hours in the entire previous 13 years. During the rest of the time he had no control over it and anything could have happened.

Don't misunderstand me: I think the stripped thread was almost certainly due to a fitter in the dealer's employ overtightening the sump bolt - but I think that would be very difficult to demonstrate to a county court.

mack625 (the OP) hasn't come back on this one since the first post; I rather suspect he tried #1 (I hope that worked and the dealer agreed a contribution), and maybe #2, but then had realised #3 would probably cost more than £400 and was far from assured of success.

I hope mack625 does come back and let us know how this one unfolded.

Alan
I'm not sure what an independent expert would cost, but assuming you win your case, I would expect these costs back. I would also have anticipated that in small claims court an independent expert report would suffice.

If the car has been serviced annually, with what appears to be a low mileage, there doesn't appear to be a reason why anyone else would have the plug off. Civil Court is based on the balance of probabilities, so IF you can get an expert report to say that it shouldn't wear out after 13 uses without some misuse, which is what the dealer claims. Is it more probable that OP had it off for some other reason despite faithfully getting it serviced at the same dealer every year, and he damaged it, or that it was damaged by the people that take it out every year ?

There's obviously time & money at risk in going to this length, with no guarantee of return, I'm sure a reasonable argument could be had by the dealer but I can see why OP would be annoyed enough to pursue this, after faithfully returning to the same dealer to try to do the best for his car. It may also be worth the dealers time to settle rather than pay lawyers.


Other route, assuming they are signed up :

"Alternative Dispute Resolution involves an independent and impartial third party reviewing the evidence and making a decision, offering a view or helping the parties come to an agreement. This is a free and swift alternative to taking the issue to court.

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/co...ke-a-complaint
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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 20:48   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocinante View Post
I'm not sure what an independent expert would cost, but assuming you win your case, I would expect these costs back. I would also have anticipated that in small claims court an independent expert report would suffice.

If the car has been serviced annually, with what appears to be a low mileage, there doesn't appear to be a reason why anyone else would have the plug off. Civil Court is based on the balance of probabilities, so IF you can get an expert report to say that it shouldn't wear out after 13 uses without some misuse, which is what the dealer claims. Is it more probable that OP had it off for some other reason despite faithfully getting it serviced at the same dealer every year, and he damaged it, or that it was damaged by the people that take it out every year ?

There's obviously time & money at risk in going to this length, with no guarantee of return, I'm sure a reasonable argument could be had by the dealer but I can see why OP would be annoyed enough to pursue this, after faithfully returning to the same dealer to try to do the best for his car. It may also be worth the dealers time to settle rather than pay lawyers.


Other route, assuming they are signed up :

"Alternative Dispute Resolution involves an independent and impartial third party reviewing the evidence and making a decision, offering a view or helping the parties come to an agreement. This is a free and swift alternative to taking the issue to court.

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/co...ke-a-complaint
Que sera, sera.
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Old Oct 21st, 2021, 21:44   #18
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[QUOTE=Familyman 90;2778592]Why risk a helicoil if a new sump is available? Helicoil is what you turn to when all reasonable options are exhausted, not a first port of call.

A Helicoil insert ( other makes are available ) into soft metals actually has a better mechanical wear & load capacity when compared to the original metal .
Helicoil inserts are used by aerospace & aviation manufacturers and most certainly meet their stringent requirements .

https://www.boellhoff.com/gb-en/prod...s-helicoil.php

My suggestion of insert repair was to ensure the poor OP got their vehicle back quickly & without a having a massive bill foisted onto them by an A-Hole dealer & their clearly ham fisted butchers . It is also backed up 45 years mechanical experience across a wide field . I have repaired stripped threads in engine blocks with inserts & never had an insert fail or cause a gasket to leak due to reduced clamping pressure on the head bolts / studs & bolts . You risk nothing using inserts & actually gain from their use for all the reasons I have given
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Old Oct 22nd, 2021, 21:20   #19
StanC
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The dealer is talking rubbish. Properly removed and replaced (to the correct torque) a sump plug and threads should last the life of the car. I've done hundreds of oil changes in my 55 years of motoring and have never had damaged sump threads. I suppose it's just possible that you've had a faulty, rogue sump, but it's unlikely - and it's lasted the first 12 years ok, so why fail now? I can only think that the dealer has grossly overtightened the plug at the previous service, damaging the threads.

As others have said, the problem is proving that only the dealer has ever touched the car. The service record should demonstrate that no other oil changes would have been necessary, over and above what the dealer has done, so in all probability it is their responsibility.

Stan.
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Old Oct 22nd, 2021, 21:43   #20
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Remember that a civil claim is on the balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt. If you can prove to a court that there is a 50.00001% probability that no one other than a Volvo dealer has touched your sump, then you have a chance of success.

I have found that a letter before claim has resolved most of my issues over the past couple of decades and only once has resulted in actually attending a court (which the other party didn’t attend and I won by default).
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