940 saloon on ebay

[TonyS9]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I was referring to hydrogen, as previously stated, as an alternative ICE fuel. Not for energy storage, i've heard it can be done but given hydrogens volatile nature is allegedly dangerous.

The option of Tesla/other manufacturers and/or the electricity companies owning your battery, you getting the car cheap and participating in a V2G system would make it much more viable and less of a rip-off. Letting Tesla have the monopoly on that would be a bad move though.

The problem is that Hydrogen is not a fuel source as such. You can make Hydrogen from Natural Gas, but you have to put in more energy than you get out and it releases CO2 in the process, this isn't considered very green. I think we agree that its more efficient to burn the LPG instead of the Hydrogen in that case, but burning it for electricity brings into high efficiency terratory, buring in a combustion engine is not as good, but certainly would have been alot better alternative to all those diesels.

Greener Hydrogen is made using electricity but the processes are inefficienct. For 100kWh of Electricity from Hydrogen, you have to put in 300kWh of electricity. A battery is more lile 110kWh.

As for Teslas VPP, I think it really depends who they get to manage it. Elon is pretty altruistic, but the sale/service problems demonstrated by Rich Rebuilds is pretty typical of the car industry so I expect they have someone from the traditional industry and they have filled Elons head full of risk and brand damage from inexperienced repair shops, if indeed he really knows what is happening. Gov't are trying to counter it and it was interesting to hear his state has a right to repair law. EU has a number of similar anti-competitive practice prevention laws and bringing in more to encourage longer product life.
Anyway for VPP its unlikely Tesla will have much competition for the next 10yrs, they will sell cheap cars with a battery contract that you have to use their software/chargers or it will be built into the car. Legcay makers have to catchup on battery supply, VPP is not even thought about by them, they don't kow what it is. But all this stuff has yet to evolve.

[TonyS9]

Originally Posted by MiniNinjaRob

All batteries producers have to pay for the eventual recycling of what they produce when they make them. Then the recyclers claim that money when they provide evidence that they have been recycled. More batteries made, more money for recycling. Sometimes if the materials in the batteries are valuable they don’t really need that money as the profit from recovering those materials is pretty good in itself. This has long been the case for lead acid batteries which are stolen from some recyclers for their lead content.

Even if there is a bit of an overstock of batteries waiting to be recycled they have to be stored in a way which protects the environment - the regulations are pretty strict.

MiniNinjaRob - MCIWM Chartered Waste and Resource Manager

I have dealt with battery reporting in consumer electronics.
I'm not sure how the auto industry works, but the consumer side works as current placing on the market share, pays the same share for current/recent recycling. Of course it relies on voluntary (but mandatory) reporting of placing on the market, but as with most regulations noone is policing it, either reporting or councills polcing consumer putting batteries in the bin, alot of small stuff goes into landfil illegally.

Vehicle waste is dealt with under a different directive for some reason, but at least much less likely to go into lanfill accidentally.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by MiniNinjaRob

All batteries producers have to pay for the eventual recycling of what they produce when they make them. Then the recyclers claim that money when they provide evidence that they have been recycled. More batteries made, more money for recycling. Sometimes if the materials in the batteries are valuable they don’t really need that money as the profit from recovering those materials is pretty good in itself. This has long been the case for lead acid batteries which are stolen from some recyclers for their lead content.

Even if there is a bit of an overstock of batteries waiting to be recycled they have to be stored in a way which protects the environment - the regulations are pretty strict.

MiniNinjaRob - MCIWM Chartered Waste and Resource Manager

We can't predict the future, if we could we might not be having this conversation as diesels would never have been sanctioned for passenger car use. However, given the cost of batteries for EVs, it's reasonable to assume that a black market will spring up not only in secondhand trade of them but also in supply of new ones. Many of these suppliers won't beproperly registered, pay whatever fees for recycling and so on. Then they will dispose of old batteries by illegal means. Think fly tipping on a larger scale.

I'll be glad to be proved wrong, however i don't think i will be.

Originally Posted by TonyS9

The problem is that Hydrogen is not a fuel source as such. You can make Hydrogen from Natural Gas, but you have to put in more energy than you get out and it releases CO2 in the process, this isn't considered very green. I think we agree that its more efficient to burn the LPG instead of the Hydrogen in that case, but burning it for electricity brings into high efficiency terratory, buring in a combustion engine is not as good, but certainly would have been alot better alternative to all those diesels.

Greener Hydrogen is made using electricity but the processes are inefficienct. For 100kWh of Electricity from Hydrogen, you have to put in 300kWh of electricity. A battery is more lile 110kWh.

As for Teslas VPP, I think it really depends who they get to manage it. Elon is pretty altruistic, but the sale/service problems demonstrated by Rich Rebuilds is pretty typical of the car industry so I expect they have someone from the traditional industry and they have filled Elons head full of risk and brand damage from inexperienced repair shops, if indeed he really knows what is happening. Gov't are trying to counter it and it was interesting to hear his state has a right to repair law. EU has a number of similar anti-competitive practice prevention laws and bringing in more to encourage longer product life.
Anyway for VPP its unlikely Tesla will have much competition for the next 10yrs, they will sell cheap cars with a battery contract that you have to use their software/chargers or it will be built into the car. Legcay makers have to catchup on battery supply, VPP is not even thought about by them, they don't kow what it is. But all this stuff has yet to evolve.

I think my answer to Rob covers a lot of this as well Tony, with pirate batteries on the market who knows if the VPP/V2G will be supported by the on-board computer and if so, will it be correct? Just one of many thoughts on the subject!

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by 360beast

I don't know if I was clear then Dave, 4th kicks in at 30mph but lock up doesn't until 65 or 64 as you have found out for me

Are you sure it's reached 4th Luke? I could just about get 4th on one of my B230Es (ZF box) by about 30mph but i had to be so gentle on the loud pedal! Lock-up came a bit earlier on those, about 45-50mph if memory serves but still high compared to a lot of others i've driven and/or owned, even with similar boxes.

I don't know why Volvo set the lock up speed so high! Or overdrive come to that!

[360beast]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Are you sure it's reached 4th Luke? I could just about get 4th on one of my B230Es (ZF box) by about 30mph but i had to be so gentle on the loud pedal! Lock-up came a bit earlier on those, about 45-50mph if memory serves but still high compared to a lot of others i've driven and/or owned, even with similar boxes.

I don't know why Volvo set the lock up speed so high! Or overdrive come to that!

Yeah it is definitely 4th, I haven't driven it for about 8 months now so I'm a bit hazy on the actual rpm but 30mph just about gets 4th (32mph on speedo which is 30mph on gps) and revs at just over idle I think. But like you found if I flex my big toe it drops in to 3rd.

[TonyS9]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

We can't predict the future, if we could we might not be having this conversation as diesels would never have been sanctioned for passenger car use. However, given the cost of batteries for EVs, it's reasonable to assume that a black market will spring up not only in secondhand trade of them but also in supply of new ones. Many of these suppliers won't beproperly registered, pay whatever fees for recycling and so on. Then they will dispose of old batteries by illegal means. Think fly tipping on a larger scale.

I'll be glad to be proved wrong, however i don't think i will be.

We can predict the future, just different people have different predictions of variable accuracy. You, me and the New Scientist predicted the diesel outcome back in the mid 2000s.

The diesel problem was legacy car company bosses who don't really know or care about the difficulty of making diesel clean, and gov't types who don't know how to handle companies and think they are prioritising the economy. Car companies made promises they couldn't keep but made a ton of cash in the process, except now they are paying the price in fines and loss of business due to lack of investment in batteries. I expect a number of big companies to go bust.

On batteries, a black market in batteries is certainly a new idea I havn't heard before, but I think the reason is that there will be no need for it. (I assume you mean fake or pattern replacements for high mileage cars)

As I already pointed out, batteries last a long time so cars won't need them to be replaced.
Any that need replaced are usually done under warranty by the mfr for a mfr defect. Decent warranties only started around 2018, prior to that Tesla didn't even warrant the battery against capacity loss, although many people thought they did due to the wording in the guarantee. I had a pretty poor opinion of the EV market up to that point, now there is good data available from customers and battery life is still being pushed hard.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by TonyS9

We can predict the future, just different people have different predictions of variable accuracy. You, me and the New Scientist predicted the diesel outcome back in the mid 2000s.

The diesel problem was legacy car company bosses who don't really know or care about the difficulty of making diesel clean, and gov't types who don't know how to handle companies and think they are prioritising the economy. Car companies made promises they couldn't keep but made a ton of cash in the process, except now they are paying the price in fines and loss of business due to lack of investment in batteries. I expect a number of big companies to go bust.

On batteries, a black market in batteries is certainly a new idea I havn't heard before, but I think the reason is that there will be no need for it. (I assume you mean fake or pattern replacements for high mileage cars)

As I already pointed out, batteries last a long time so cars won't need them to be replaced.
Any that need replaced are usually done under warranty by the mfr for a mfr defect. Decent warranties only started around 2018, prior to that Tesla didn't even warrant the battery against capacity loss, although many people thought they did due to the wording in the guarantee. I had a pretty poor opinion of the EV market up to that point, now there is good data available from customers and battery life is still being pushed hard.

I was really meaning we can't predict the future as far as what the govt and successive govts will do but that aside i predicted serious health problems for the nation from diesel fumes back in 1983. No internet then of course, all my research had to be done in the school library in my own time. I also interrogated various teachers (some of whom i didn't even have classes with) to find out about the effects on certain things from diesel fumes.

The question i've always wanted answered is if a secondary school pupil could find the relevant information in a school library and correlate it to show diesel wasn't the viable, green, healthy solution the govt portrayed it as, why couldn't the govt scientists and if they did, why did they not advise the govt against it? I know (found this out much later) there was a panel of experts from oil companies that also told the govt not to do it so maybe the scientists did too.
It seems though we are agreed on the fact car companies took "payments" from various governments to produce "clean" diseasels which because of its sooty nature is going to be impossible. I believe (if memory serves correctly) the payments were dressed up as govt grants to help develop clean diseasels so yes, the car companys mouths were writing cheques their engineers had no hope of being able to cash.

Not just fake and/or pattern batteries for EVs but also stolen batteries for their precious metal content (although it could be argued that they would then be recycled anyway), batteries cut out of write offs and sold cheap, the possibilities are endless for a high value commodity. Look at tobacco, alcohol, anything else with a high value. Now think about it some more - i daresay you'll come up with more possibilities than i've mentioned! For example, wait untl the drgu cartels realise they can buy an EV and hide drugs inside the battery compartment, cunningly disguised as a battery.

The thing is, no matter how good a picture you try and paint, there will always be some irk that decides they can make money by scamming someone else and if they see batteries as an easy target, they will find a way to scam them and/or create a balck market for used/fake batteries with no questions asked.
Remember that none of these fake batteries or whatever will be on "the system" so nobody will know if they've been recycled or just dumped.

[TonyS9]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I was really meaning we can't predict the future as far as what the govt and successive govts will do but that aside i predicted serious health problems for the nation from diesel fumes back in 1983. No internet then of course, all my research had to be done in the school library in my own time. I also interrogated various teachers (some of whom i didn't even have classes with) to find out about the effects on certain things from diesel fumes.

The question i've always wanted answered is if a secondary school pupil could find the relevant information in a school library and correlate it to show diesel wasn't the viable, green, healthy solution the govt portrayed it as, why couldn't the govt scientists and if they did, why did they not advise the govt against it? I know (found this out much later) there was a panel of experts from oil companies that also told the govt not to do it so maybe the scientists did too.
It seems though we are agreed on the fact car companies took "payments" from various governments to produce "clean" diseasels which because of its sooty nature is going to be impossible. I believe (if memory serves correctly) the payments were dressed up as govt grants to help develop clean diseasels so yes, the car companys mouths were writing cheques their engineers had no hope of being able to cash.

Not just fake and/or pattern batteries for EVs but also stolen batteries for their precious metal content (although it could be argued that they would then be recycled anyway), batteries cut out of write offs and sold cheap, the possibilities are endless for a high value commodity. Look at tobacco, alcohol, anything else with a high value. Now think about it some more - i daresay you'll come up with more possibilities than i've mentioned! For example, wait untl the drgu cartels realise they can buy an EV and hide drugs inside the battery compartment, cunningly disguised as a battery.

The thing is, no matter how good a picture you try and paint, there will always be some irk that decides they can make money by scamming someone else and if they see batteries as an easy target, they will find a way to scam them and/or create a balck market for used/fake batteries with no questions asked.
Remember that none of these fake batteries or whatever will be on "the system" so nobody will know if they've been recycled or just dumped.

Well there is always someone ready to steal stuff, but the metals are alot less precious than fuel cells or catalytic converters. Cobalt was the most expensive element but you can buy 1 tonne of cobalt for 0.75 kg of gold, and its only 3% of a battery now. Latest batteries are Cobalt free. Could be worth some money in Nickle, but it needs specialist recycler.

There are also a number of different chemistries, and that will only increase. LiFePo is becoming popular again.

The value is in the construction as a working battery so the market for stolen EV batteries will be for conversion shops, grid storage etc. Maybe something to look out for. I'm sure they are serialised so mfrs could post the numbers of stolen batteries or verify serial numbers.