Smart motorways and accidents.

[DaveNP]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

You would think so, wouldn't you, Thomas. Another example for you:

Our church tower roof needed replacing last year as it was leaking like a sieve and as a result the timber beams supporting it had rotted (they had been there for circa 400 years). It was made of lead, is 90 feet up (inaccessible without scaffolding) and only visible from above.

Despite more modern materials being available that are lighter, stronger and much cheaper, we had no choice but to replace it like for like in order to comply with church rules and listed building status.

Regards, John.

So glad our church building, being an ex-community centre built in the 70's, was defined by the council's conservation officer as being 'of no significant architectural merit'. Hopefully the planning committee approve our new design which is a Cross Laminated Timber building with a sheet zinc roof and terracotta cladding on the exterior walls. The CLT structure is a bit radical for the UK and has been slightly contentious but the Buildings group felt we should be prepared to build something which was not only a good church building but also was good environmentally and architecturally. I do find the insistence on not making any changes to old church buildings quite bizarre, we're quite happy to visit and marvel at the Norman arches in the earliest bit, the Perpendicular windows in the later bit and the Victorian rood screen etc, but it's as if the 20th century Church forgot how to build.

[green van man]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

You would think so, wouldn't you, Thomas. Another example for you:

Our church tower roof needed replacing last year as it was leaking like a sieve and as a result the timber beams supporting it had rotted (they had been there for circa 400 years). It was made of lead, is 90 feet up (inaccessible without scaffolding) and only visible from above.

Despite more modern materials being available that are lighter, stronger and much cheaper, we had no choice but to replace it like for like in order to comply with church rules and listed building status.

Regards, John.

Lime mortor on a boundary wall rather than simple cement mortor was insisted on by our church council when some toe rag drove into it demolishing part thereof.

Limited tradesmen able to use lime motor, travel 60 miles to brecon in order to aquire the materials and wait around for suitable weather before repair could be effected.
Had we been able to use cement 2 or 3 of the members would of repaired it over a weekend as volunteers, instead the bill was £1200..

Paul.

[ThomasG]

What have I done?

Walls, roofs...

And I just wanted to give example that in many cases, people are stuck in the past.

Be it these lime walls, tiled or leaded roofs...

Or be it driving.

And half the time there's no logic behind it.

In many cases I can't even think down the universal thumbrule: "something doesn't make sense? There's money involved. Follow money, it'll make sense".

Like that lime wall, indeed!
(That is unless your pastor is counting on another fool driving into that wall and providing good excuse to cash in on insurance. Such an expensive wall?)

[green van man]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

What have I done?

Walls, roofs...

And I just wanted to give example that in many cases, people are stuck in the past.

Be it these lime walls, tiled or leaded roofs...

Or be it driving.

And half the time there's no logic behind it.

In many cases I can't even think down the universal thumbrule: "something doesn't make sense? There's money involved. Follow money, it'll make sense".

Like that lime wall, indeed!
(That is unless your pastor is counting on another fool driving into that wall and providing good excuse to cash in on insurance. Such an expensive wall?)

It was not a local decision Thomas but a dictat from on high, or at least the Bishops office, which may as well be God as far as the vicar is concerned.
Admittedly the site has a 700 year history and David, patron saint of Wales was reputedly educated here, however the victorians were unhappy with the 600 year old church and demolished it to rebuild a splendid victoriana pile which better reflected their standing in the community and their wealth.
New oak beams to hold the lynch gate up were another £2000 expence. They had rotted where in contact with the ground.
My solution would of been to shorten them back to solid timber and make the distance up with a galvanised foot, but that was not traditional enough for the powers that be. We have a problem with the wrought iron latches on the gate , they have rusted against the wall and pushed out into the opening thus preventing the gate closing fully, similarly the hinges have rusted against the wood and are being forced off it. My solution as they are bespoke items is new in either stailess steel or galvanised steel and paint them black as the wrought iron ones are. Getting permition to do so is quite another matter.

Paul.

[john.wigley]

I think it is a universal problem, Paul. If Thomas will permit the digression; we also spend a not insignificant amount of time and money maintaining a 12th century building. Why, one may well ask? If it is just to look good on wedding photographs in the year 2500, then I think that we may need to reassess our priorities. We could certainly do a lot more in the community if we were free of the burden of responsibility for the building.

David is indeed fortunate with his building, but can you imagine the outcry if we suggested closing our churches and replacing them with modern but nondescript, energy-efficient and low maintenance structures? No, we are all simply custodians, doing our best to keep them in good heart in order to hand over to the next generation to worry over.

Like you, I question the wisdom of this philosophy, but I can't see it changing any time soon, can you?

Regards, John.

[ThomasG]

I don't see it as digression, John

I see it as.. emm... "part of the problem" (I think this term fits best, but still- I'd like to have better one handy).

It's the same with driving ("I've been driving this way 30 years, officer, never had accident!" Someone here said. Of course not about himself )

I could add "I've got tiled roof because everyone else has"

"It's wallpaper actually holding my walls together because that's the way it always was"

Sure, one could think in pattern of "trying to teach old dog new tricks", but then there's plenty of "young dogs" around, and... They're taught old tricks!

Edit:

Just to avoid misunderstanding:

I'm in no way against keeping heritage sites, buildings of historic value etc.
We owe it to our children.

But not being able to take down a terraced house that literally crumbles from age and simply wrong materials (whatever was available at the time it was built), and put up new one, even same looking but built strong, because "this is traditional"?

Laugh!

Sad laugh.

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

I don't see it as digression, John

I see it as.. emm... "part of the problem"

I'm in no way against keeping heritage sites, buildings of historic value etc.
We owe it to our children.

But not being able to take down a terraced house that literally crumbles from age and simply wrong materials (whatever was available at the time it was built), and put up new one, even same looking but built strong, because "this is traditional"?

Laugh!

Sad laugh.

On the one hand, I agree with you. It is one reason that we are members of the National Trust.

On the other, I am not so sure. Especially concerning churches, are we leaving the next generation something beautiful, something valuable (not only in monetary terms) to be treasured, or are we leaving them with a huge burden?

Knowing what we spend in both time and money on maintenance and repair, I sometimes feel that it might be the latter. Our tower roof cost the thick end of £90K to replace, with a life expectancy of 100 - 150 years. We were fortunate in receiving some grant aid, but it is still an awful lot of money to have to find!

Regards, John.

[green van man]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

On the one hand, I agree with you. It is one reason that we are members of the National Trust.

On the other, I am not so sure. Especially concerning churches, are we leaving the next generation something beautiful, something valuable (not only in monetary terms) to be treasured, or are we leaving them with a huge burden?

Knowing what we spend in both time and money on maintenance and repair, I sometimes feel that it might be the latter. Our tower roof cost the thick end of £90K to replace, with a life expectancy of 100 - 150 years. We were fortunate in receiving some grant aid, but it is still an awful lot of money to have to find!

Regards, John.

And all the while we know the church is the people not the biulding.

I moved from a 106 year old stone biult 3 story terraced house to a timber framed 2 bed bungalow. Heating hot water bill for a year is less than a winter quarter gas bill in the old house which I had modernised as best I could with new double glazed windows and a new roof with excess of regulations level of insulation. And the bungalow runs on oil as we are off the gas grid.

Fortunately I fitted a new boiler 3 years ago which will see me out, given the current murerings of banning gas and oil boilers in 2025. I deliberately went for a bigger than nessesary boidler as a big boiler running light is more efficient than a small boiler running hard and oil consumption is indeed less.

Way too much stick and not near enough carrot in these situations. In the old house had a firm call offering a grant to lag the loft. Did an inspection, yes good news you qualify for the grant, you have to put some money towards it but the govornment pays the rest. Oh yes, how much? HOW MUCH, on your bike. I went to B&Q and baught the insulation and laid it myself, 50% thicker than needed and still saved £25 off MY contribution. Just a "GREEN" rip off scheam.

Thank God for the Lord cos you cannot trust any one else.

Paul.

[ThomasG]

And so, few posts above could be summed up as "what it is"...


Now. "WHY" is it so?

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

And so, few posts above could be summed up as "what it is"...


Now. "WHY" is it so?

Two of Kipling's six honest serving men, Thomas! J.