D5 (2005 on) Engine Oil

[Shadeyman]

I've used Castrol in all my bike and cars, Volvo recommends Castrol so I use Castrol Edge. My XC90 has done over 20,000 miles on it, 170,000 miles on the clock and it pulls like a tank and purr's like a kitten ...

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

I've used Castrol in all my bike and cars, Volvo recommends Castrol so I use Castrol Edge. My XC90 has done over 20,000 miles on it, 170,000 miles on the clock and it pulls like a tank and purr's like a kitten ...

Edge is a very good oil, but it's kind of expensive, as is Mobil Turbo Diesel. Liqui Moly Synthoil High Tech 0 or 5/40 is far too expensive, as is Redline 10/40 or Amsoil 5/40 (German standard G4 full synthetics).
Shell Helix Ultra 5/40 (Their 0/30 or 40 costs more) Acea A3/B4 is the best in town in cost terms for older diesels that don't have a DPF. A GTL (Gas To Liquids) based oil is a slightly better lubricant and a much better cleaner than a good HC synthetic like Edge.

Don't forget oil filter quality is important and actual filter failures are common in the non OEM world.

Castrol Edge 0/30 was made in Belgium, but is now made in Germany along with the newer Edge 0/40. Shell won the new OEM main supply contract for BMW a few months ago, based partly on its use as OEM factory fill and dealer use by Ferrari. Merc seem to be sticking with Mobil M1 so far and VW will always use a cheaper oil.

[Shadeyman]

My car is due for a service soon, anyone tried "Castrol Edge Titanium" ?
http://castroledge.com/uk/products/oil-range

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

My car is due for a service soon, anyone tried "Castrol Edge Titanium" ?
http://castroledge.com/uk/products/oil-range

No, but the new Edgetit 0/40 looks real good. The Titanium additive is being used as an alternative to Zinc additives, it makes no difference but the Castrol marketing folks love a new oil image!

The 0/30 might be listed A5/B5 BUT is also listed as A1/B1 (Tractor oil) by Castrol. Not seen that done before, as it admits just how low the additive levels are. Acea A3/B4 is far better if you can use it.

[Shadeyman]

Titanium is a newer, more environmentally friendly anti-wear additive being implemented due to more stringent emissions regulations, and is phasing out older, harmful phosphorous compounds such as ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). ZDDP reduces the effectiveness of the catalysts in catalytic converters by creating a plating effect when combusted, and covering the catalyst. Titanium chemically binds to wear surfaces creating a hard, Titanium based oxide layer which reduces friction, thereby reducing wear. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand. Oil brands currently high in Titanium concentrations include Castrol Edge with Titanium.

As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind replacing Zinc with Titanium is mainly environmental, catalysts. It significantly reduces friction too. Costs about £100 for my XC90 so I hope its worth it ...

The original Patent is almost 10 years old.
http://www.google.com/patents/US7767632

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Shadeyman

Titanium is a newer, more environmentally friendly anti-wear additive being implemented due to more stringent emissions regulations, and is phasing out older, harmful phosphorous compounds such as ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). ZDDP reduces the effectiveness of the catalysts in catalytic converters by creating a plating effect when combusted, and covering the catalyst. Titanium chemically binds to wear surfaces creating a hard, Titanium based oxide layer which reduces friction, thereby reducing wear. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand. Oil brands currently high in Titanium concentrations include Castrol Edge with Titanium.

As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind replacing Zinc with Titanium is mainly environmental, catalysts. It significantly reduces friction too. Costs about £100 for my XC90 so I hope its worth it ...

The original Patent is almost 10 years old.
http://www.google.com/patents/US7767632

If you look at UOA results for oils containing Titanium, you will notice one thing, none of them contain enough to make any difference to the results. It's just too expensive to use as anything other than an adverstising gimic. Base stock is the name of the game, as a real good G4 Synthoil or GTL base (Ultra) makes it far less likely the oil film will break down in the first place.

Castrol and Mobil spend much more on their adversting per oil can than the other major engine oil companies like Shell or Liqui Moly, so I'm not surprised that they are charging 100 quid for an oil that won't perform any better than normal Edge. They need to move ahead and stop using crude oil based products to make real progress, or try adding a Ceramic suspension like Ceratec, IF they can buy some off the Germans or Americans.

If you want to go green, just cut the oil consumption, as that is what blocks CAT's in the very long term. The easy way to do that is to use LM MoS2 or Ceratec, as they will help reduce it (Ceratec is Moly plus Boron Nitride ceramic suspension, it is more effective and lasts longer). MoS2 is not the same as other types of Moly and only LM make it in such an effective form, but like Cery it works best when used in a clean block and not mixed with other oil additives, so use an idle flush just before the oil & filter change, then add it on its own.

[Backhill1]

I have never heard such a complex range of answers to a fairly straightforward question.
Yes some oils are better than others and the API/ACEA guidelines are a little woolly but the bottom line as Clan has already stated if you want to go with the manufacturers maintenance specification you must use the recommended oil or equivalent to ensure the engine will last the intervals between changes.

So here are the basic facts. Volvo issue an oil Specification (Quality of the oil) ACEA A5/ B5 so provided whatever you use meets this specification it “SHOULD” not do any harm to the engine.
You then have the climatic conditions (Temp Range) of your duty which Volvo have decided that 0W-30 is optimum.

Varying out with this slightly will generally not matter a Jot (0W/40) in the UK as most of the time ambient temperature is irrelevant and the engine oil temperatures are constant. Cold flow is important if you do frequent short runs in the winter but for an example in industrial and marine applications of the D5 a 15W/40 is the norm.

They also recommend a known brand / Oil Partner (Castrol) which is normally chosen at the design and development stage of the engine as this will have a known base stock quality and what we generally refer to as a TBN value that will last based on known fuel quality globally to last the duration of the interval (we use Mobil as they generally have the highest grade of mineral base stock).

To have engine approval of an oil is a big deal for manufacturers and not taken likely so once they have that they will generally not mess with the recipe.

You then get into synthetic and what that means so you can actually have a mineral oil with a very low synthetic content that can be called synthetic. This is where the consumer is being exploited as they believe they are getting something they are not. This is where cost fits in normally in direct relation to the mix of mineral to synthetic content of base stock.

As already stated with oil you get what you generally pay for and although a particular brand may have the correct grade A5/B5, if the base stock and detergents are not up to the mark it might not last 18K miles but might last 12K? hence why manufacturers play safe and use what they know works.

What we have in industrial applications is SOS (Scheduled oil sampling) where we allow customers to use whatever oil they like provided it meets the ACEA rating and we then check it every 500hr (vhange interval) and 100hrs before due to check how it’s doing. If ok we extend the interval and keep extending until its lost its working life. That way we match the oil to the application and maximise its life and protect the engine.

With a top of the range proper fully synthetic we can double the life but the costs almost treble so most operators opt for more frequent changes with a mineral based fully compliant oil.

So what you will probably find if the oil is 30% cheaper it will last 30% less so do you want to change your oil more often? If you are say changing at 12K then this would probably be fine and have no detrimental effect.

But if you are sticking with the 18K intervals I would be very wary of deviating unless it was a fully synthetic A5/B5 0W/30.
If you have a particular brand of oil you are considering I can compare data sheets between that and the Volvo specified oil for how I think it will last in service and as you are in Ireland you can even do SOS sampling if you like for an approximate cost of £12 at an earlier interval for peace of mind going forward.

Mechanically the D5 is a tough old beast but I’m not sure how the lack of specified detergents would have long term effects on the EGR system etc. bearing in mind Volvo will have probably put the equivalent of 500K on this engine with Castrol before it hit the roads.

But what is key in the question is what is your duty a description of that will help as Volvo have taken the worst case sinario with specking at 18K.

I hope this has helped and unless you are pushing the limits a well balanced caluclated assessment can be made.

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Backhill1

I have never heard such a complex range of answers to a fairly straightforward question.
Yes some oils are better than others and the API/ACEA guidelines are a little woolly but the bottom line as Clan has already stated if you want to go with the manufacturers maintenance specification you must use the recommended oil or equivalent to ensure the engine will last the intervals between changes.
The OP has a 2009 and it is probably out of warranty, so there is no need to spend big bucks on Edge.
So here are the basic facts. Volvo issue an oil Specification (Quality of the oil) ACEA A5/ B5 so provided whatever you use meets this specification it “SHOULD” not do any harm to the engine.
Volvo and Ford are not concerned with engine life, as long as it does not result in too many failures within the warranty period.
You then have the climatic conditions (Temp Range) of your duty which Volvo have decided that 0W-30 is optimum.
Don't forget Edge is a thick 0/30 if you use an alternative.
Varying out with this slightly will generally not matter a Jot (0W/40) in the UK as most of the time ambient temperature is irrelevant and the engine oil temperatures are constant. Cold flow is important if you do frequent short runs in the winter but for an example in industrial and marine applications of the D5 a 15W/40 is the norm.
15/40 is the recommended hot desert ops oil and good during summer, but only Amsoil make a G4 full synthetic one.
They also recommend a known brand / Oil Partner (Castrol) which is normally chosen at the design and development stage of the engine as this will have a known base stock quality and what we generally refer to as a TBN value that will last based on known fuel quality globally to last the duration of the interval (we use Mobil as they generally have the highest grade of mineral base stock).
The design team are more interested in fuel economy, so often err on the thin side and Castrol do change their product line, hence the new Titanium Edge.

To have engine approval of an oil is a big deal for manufacturers and not taken likely so once they have that they will generally not mess with the recipe.
They sure have messed with it in the past, as they are not long term supply contracts. They even change the max OCI sometimes.
You then get into synthetic and what that means so you can actually have a mineral oil with a very low synthetic content that can be called synthetic. This is where the consumer is being exploited as they believe they are getting something they are not. This is where cost fits in normally in direct relation to the mix of mineral to synthetic content of base stock.
TRUE, only German terminology for engine oil makes sense in technical terms.
As already stated with oil you get what you generally pay for and although a particular brand may have the correct grade A5/B5, if the base stock and detergents are not up to the mark it might not last 18K miles but might last 12K? hence why manufacturers play safe and use what they know works.
Some folks forget that OCI limits are RECOMMENDED MAX not written in stone and many DPF short trippers have far too much diesel in their oil when it's changed.
What we have in industrial applications is SOS (Scheduled oil sampling) where we allow customers to use whatever oil they like provided it meets the ACEA rating and we then check it every 500hr (vhange interval) and 100hrs before due to check how it’s doing. If ok we extend the interval and keep extending until its lost its working life. That way we match the oil to the application and maximise its life and protect the engine.
I do a UOA every oil change, although I'm mostly looking for signs of a HG failure before it's too late to use a sealant.
With a top of the range proper fully synthetic we can double the life but the costs almost treble so most operators opt for more frequent changes with a mineral based fully compliant oil.
Some G4 Synthetics will last twice as long, as will Shell Ultra, but contamination effects different oils in the same way, so if you don't sample, you are only guessing when to change the oil.
So what you will probably find if the oil is 30% cheaper it will last 30% less so do you want to change your oil more often? If you are say changing at 12K then this would probably be fine and have no detrimental effect.
Castrol Edge is twice the price of Shell Ultra and three times that of Magnetec!
But if you are sticking with the 18K intervals I would be very wary of deviating unless it was a fully synthetic A5/B5 0W/30.
100% wrong, if you run long oil change intervals after the warranty expires, move up to Edge 0/40 (No DPF) or Turbo Edge 5/40 (With DPF), then add a can of Ceratec to the latter as it's thin on Zinc. In winter an 0/30 is OK. If you must use an A5/B5 don't foget the warning that it is only the same as an A1/B1 in additive terms. A can of MoS2 or Ceratec will help with wear, but it is not a long drain interval oil.
If you have a particular brand of oil you are considering I can compare data sheets between that and the Volvo specified oil for how I think it will last in service and as you are in Ireland you can even do SOS sampling if you like for an approximate cost of £12 at an earlier interval for peace of mind going forward.
Very few oil companies list oil contents, just basic viscosity figures and approvals etc. They don't like saying how much detergent or additives are in the oil, although will list the Zinc contents if asked. The data sheets are in the public domain and not difficult to find.

Mechanically the D5 is a tough old beast but I’m not sure how the lack of specified detergents would have long term effects on the EGR system etc. bearing in mind Volvo will have probably put the equivalent of 500K on this engine with Castrol before it hit the roads.
The EGR will be OK, it's the turbo and HG that fail first if the oil is not changed often enough. The wrong oil might wear the main bearings and effect the oil seals.

But what is key in the question is what is your duty a description of that will help as Volvo have taken the worst case sinario with specking at 18K.
No they don't it's based on moderately bad use but with the block in limits in wear terms. 18K miles is too long in my opinion for many severe service folks.

I hope this has helped and unless you are pushing the limits a well balanced caluclated assessment can be made.
Most owners just guess and the dealers are trying to sell expensive oil!

Inserted reply in text above.
Oil is the lifeblood of an engine and alas there are no easy answers without a quick medical check from an oil lab.

Sorry posted before editing, so the very last section should have been:

But what is key in the question is what is your duty a description of that will help as Volvo have taken the worst case sinario with specking at 18K.
No they don't it's based on moderately bad use but with the block in limits in wear terms. 18K miles is too long in my opinion for many severe service folks.
I hope this has helped and unless you are pushing the limits a well balanced caluclated assessment can be made.
Most owners just guess and the dealers are trying to sell expensive oil!

[younger06]

So, with all of that in mind, what's the opinion on using a good quality 5W/30 A5/B5 considering that the car does very few short trips and most mornings will be doing 120kmh for almost 2 hours after it is started??

Millers Oil XF 5W30 Longlife Eco oil fully synthetic (A5/B5)
Mobil 1 Super 3000 5W30 FE fully synthetic (A5/B50
Motul 8100 5W30 Eco-energy fully synthetic (A5/B5)


I will be doing 6 oil changes a year, the really expensive oils are just not a runner for me.

[Clan]

The New volvo VEA engines require a SAE 0w/20 oil and for the first time volvo now have their own oil specification which is :
VCC RB50-2AE
Apparantly this is exclusive to Castrol ...

comments welcome !