Amazing D5 Oil Deal

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by volvoid

which is better -
high spec very expensive oil changed at say 12,000 miles
or
cheaper, "to-spec" non brand oil changed at 6000 miles.

overall cost about the same
?

If the oil is not contaminated by anti freeze or excessive fuel, a longer service interval with a top quality oil nearly always works better,
BUT the only way to get a real good answer is the try the 2 different intervals and figure out which one resulted in a lower shed rate of Iron. Fe tracks distance in used oil, so it's an easy result to figure.

High tech very expensive oils nearly always produces the same results as good but cheaper major brand oils.
So for example I doubt if Castrol Edge 0/40 or LM Synthoil 5/40 will beat Shell Helix Ultra 5/40.

When figuring out an ideal lube service program, you need to think of the filter and oil as two different items.

So in the case in question, I would also check out using the oil filter for the max recommended 12K miles. Clean oil filters are real bad news, as they don't work well for about the first 20 hours of engine use. A real dirty oil filter can block about 8 times more critical size particles than a new one!

That means that the best lube service might well be a 2 for 1. So change the oil every 6K miles, BUT just use a moderately priced major brand oil, then change the oil and filter every 12K miles, with a real Volvo oil filter.
The extra oil contamination caused by using the old oil filter again makes far less difference than the bonus of a moderately dirty oil filter.

Every engine is different, used in a different way and in a different main block condition. That means what my engine likes for a lube service program could well be very different to your engine, even if it was the same type and had the same total miles.

If you don't do the occasional used oil analysis, the very important decision about when to change the oil and filter are just guess work. For example my own results show that a 15K km oil change interval with a 30K km oil filter change interval would be better (The oil is in too good a condition at 10K km and the filter is no where near blocked at 20K km). I would not try that without an oil pressure gauge to see if the filter starts to bypass when warm (The pressure will be too high when warm and it often bounces).

With an old engine that has a tiny HG leak, the shorter the oil and filter change the better (It might be causing sludge, so don't push the oil filter limits).
If the injectors have blown tips or the engine has a DPF and is short tripping, the oil filter can still be left for the max interval, but the oil will need dumping often enough to keep the diesel contamination below 5% in winter and 2% in summer. Those figures are OK in viscosity terms, but I would boost the anti wear additives by using Ceratec, as anything above about 2% does start to have a negative effect on the layer of Zinc, Moly and Boron based compounds protecting the engine during cold starts or red lining.

Using a non brand oil is a pure gamble unless you get a VOA (Virgin oil analysis) done to check what exactly it contains.
The real cheap ones often turn out to be dumped Russian winter truck oil (About a 15/50) if sold during the summer (Sounds good when warm, but is rather volatile, so it evapourates increasing the need to top up more often), or dumped Bulgarian part synthetic that failed QA checks (About a 10/30 or 40) when sold during the winter. There are good base stocks made there, but they seem to have an issue with batch failures getting driven to the UK.

It might take years for the effects of using either oil to become apparent, but the lack of anti wear additives in the Russian mix will kill the turbo bearings and increase general wear rates slightly.
The dumped Eastern block oils seem to lack additives and one report was blaming it for sludge incidents.
Many cheap oils are just homebrews, where some bunch of oily cowboys buy the cheapest base stock available and stir in a few cheap additives, slap on a real cool label (Full synthetc 0/40 race grade Acea A3/B4/C3/E4 Liquip Mooley), write an almost free web site and start up a Fleabay page, or just bribe some muppet in Halie Frauds shops to sell it.

PS: If you have a turbo or VVT, it is much more important to use an oil that cleans real well, OR run an idle flush (LM, Lubegard, Amsoil or Castrol classic)
every time the filter is changed.

PPS: Bad oils in the USA are far worse than those in the EU, as no refinery sells off QA batch failures or bad base stocks. So the oily cowboys just drive around selling filtered and bleached used engine oil, or dumped factory machine oil. The former smells odd and the latter pours like water!

[cheshired5]

It's crossed my mind that if I ever met Buzz Aldrin, I wonder how I long could chat with him before either of us mentioned the moon.
If I ever met Skyship, I wonder how long it would be before oil reared its head.

[cookie]

they had shell helix cheap other week (so that went into everything ), but have used the QX stuff in past in D5's, and nothing went bang, and no one was harmed, engine still runs

I always change oil regularly(4-6k) usually when eurocarparts have something on offer, or opie has a not be sniffed at deal.

[skyship007]

Helix is a range of different oils. They are all good, BUT the one to get is ULTRA, as that is the only GTL tecnology oil and has an almost cult following on Bob's The Oil Guy forum, where folks that look at real world results from both virgin and used oil analysis fell in love with Ultra shortly after it was first produced. It seems to perform almost as well as the best of the German G4 Synthoils, whilst costing half as much.

If you have a diesel that you want to keep long term, there is no reason why the main bearings will not last until 500K km plus and eventually fail from metal fatigue. It's just a matter of using good oil and filters, changed at an interval that matches your engine type, use and condition.
Most diesels that are used until ultimate main block failure (Older diesels last far longer than newer ones due to the use of cheaper bearings in particular) that suffer a lot of stop starts or time at idle, fail from HG leaks, fuel contamination (Gummed up injectors) or valve guide oil seal leaks.
The first 2 causes trash the oil quality and the last one (Might also involve worn rings) turns the block into an smokey oil burner.

If you don't wrong gear the engine causing pre ignition, use top quality Volvo coolant changed every few years and an oil that prevents corrosion, or overheat the engine, HG failures are a non factor, BUT because my car suffers serious abuse, the main reason I do oil analysis is to spot the onset of an HG failure well before symptoms occur. That way I can reduce the OCI to avoid potential damage or sludge formation AND add a sealant to the cooling system and stop leak to the oil. That can stop a very small HG leak fairly easily. Once you notice oil streaks, steam or bad coolant symptoms, it's game over for the main block in lfe expectany terms.

Once you clean up the block and get the lube service perfected, then it's worth using either top quality diesel, a real good LM or B&G fuel additive or an injection system direct feed diesel purge (Fill up the fuel filter with purge every time it is replaced AND never use a non Volvo fuel filter, although a Bosch "Made in Germany" one might be OK). German Aral (Owned by BP) is good quality with some nice Bio content, but I still use LM Diesel Purge and check the flashpoint figures of the used oil for signs of fuel contamination (I did get one warning for "Trace, less than 2%" during the winter).

Finally preventing Carbon deposits from damaging the valve guides and even the rings is very important for short trip sufferers, good fuel helps (Good oil helps the rings last), BUT nothing beats a Sunday morning motorway trip every month. An empty autobahn and max continous RPM (4000 not the 4500 red line for my diesel) for an hour will burn out the cylinders and clean the EGR, CAT and exhaust boxes almost back to new standards, BUT don't forget that if you are not doing an Italian autobahn trip, stay well clear of the redline, because RPM and speed of right boot relate directly to the life expectancy of the turbo bearings (Assuming you use good air filters the oil flow is correct etc). Correct cold start techniques are also very important!

I've seen a lot of diesels torn down during repairs or rebuilds and the root cause of nearly every failure was poor oil and fluid services or bad filters. A few failed from lack of use or no WOT time, with the odd bad fuel case. Although I don't include engines damaged by abuse or neglect, as running out of oil or coolant is almost as popular as broken cam belts for cars. Marine diesels don't have cam belts and are often fitted witrh an auto alarm and shut down system, so if the oil pressure falls, or the temp gets too high the fuel is cut off. The fuel filter system has twin filters, so is fairly idiot proof.

PS: Shell Ultra is not listed in their oil finder for some engines. The reason appears to be that they are not making much of a profit selling it at present. I wrote to them about that and got a good reply saying that it was the best oil to use in the Helix range and that they were going to change the oil finder to list it first. That was at least a year ago and it's still not listed, which is one sure sign of value for money!

PPS: Castrol and all the major engine oil companies cut the max oil change interval from 20 to 15K km for my diesel V40 classic last year (Castrol cut it several years ago on the UK web site).
The reason they did that was because of concerns mostly relating to turbo failures, that resulted from Volvo dealers in the UK using Castrol Magnetec 10/40 (Some were ising GTX 15/40 in summer for older diesels). Castrol and Volvo work together, as they have the OEM supply contract, BUT charge far too much for Edge 0 or 5/40 (Edge 0/30 is good for some new blocks or in winter). Volvo were pushing their luck with 20k in the first place, so if you don't use good major brand full synthetic oil, sticking to a 10K km oil dump makes a lot of sense.

[younger06]

Do I have to use a 0/30 in my 2009 D5 or can I get away with a properly specced 5/30 ??

I do very high mileage and I live in Ireland.

ps - I will only ever use genuine filters, I got 645,000kms from my Skoda Octavia by using genuine parts. (and it's still going)

[GrahamBrown1]

Stick with 0 30 it's low ash for the dpf. It's what they recommend and use in volvo dealerships.

[skyship007]

[QUOTE=younger06;1679638]Do I have to use a 0/30 in my 2009 D5 or can I get away with a properly specced 5/30 ??

Volvo often recommend Castrol Edge 0/30 for newer cars. That oil is almost at the top of the kinematic viscosity range for the Sae 30 group. In fact there is not much difference between it and the viscosity of Mobil 1 0/40, which is a low end 40.

If you use some off the shelf 5/30, it will probably start out too thin when new and not resist high temp shearing as well as Edge does, so finish up down in the 20 range when well used.

For an older engine, or one that tends to contaminate it's oil with diesel fuel (The Bio content does not burn off during a good run), it's one bad idea to use any type of 30 grade unless you keep the oil change interval short. Much more of an issue during summer than winter, as oil film strength relates to both viscosity and temperature.
No Iffy lube chain in Germany uses an x/30 for any Volvo unless you order the real McCoy Edge 0/30 in advance. They always use an x/40, often a 5/40 for very good reasons.

So it's a case of using the real McCoy Edge 0/30, or move up a grade.

[skyship007]

That is a very good idea when the car is under warranty and a newish engine does like slightly thinner oils than one that is well worn. The longish oil & filter changes are also normally OK for cars under warranty because they are not causing significant contamination of the oil if they are not short tripping or idling too much.

If you have a DPF fitted, then it is one good idea to find out if it is causing fuel contamination of the oil. That only costs 25 dollars plus about 4 quid in one way postage (The results are e mailed back and you can get a free test bottle from Blackstone Lab).

Less than 2% is not a big issue
2 to 5%: Reduce the oil change interval until it is below 2% in the summer.
Above 5%: Try and find out what is wrong with the DPF system, as it might be blocked etc. Think about selling the car and getting a hybrid or stop-start diesel if you have to do a lot of inner city driving.

If the figure is stiil above 2% after reducing the oil change interval down to 5K miles (Or 50% on the OLM), move up one grade to an x/40 major brand full synthetic and add half a can of LM Ceratec every oil change. Obviously it's good to use a DPF (Might be an Acea C3) rated oil, but it's also important to reduce both the Carbon in the exhaust AND the oil consumption. Ceratec is very good at cutting both wear and internal oil consumption, BUT it's also a good idea to use a Diesel Purge when changing fuel filter to keep the injectors gum free.

With a very well worn block that has a DPF fitted, I would even consider using an oil stop leak additive (Half a can only) in addition to Ceratec and a thicker oil to try and reduce the ash level. Oil consumption rates are as important as oil ash contents.

Unfortunately most high mileage oils have too much Zinc anti wear additive to be classed as suitable for a DPF, which is a pity, as Mobil 1 10/60 EL (Extended life or something, which means it's a high mileage oil with seal conditioners) is real good for main bearings that are on their last legs. If the top end starts to fail first (High oil consumption rather than rattles and drips), using a real thick oil like M1 10/60 (It's almost into the top of the 50 range) is not good news for top end oil flow rates, as it will increase the cylinder head temps. Staying away from high RPM's is one way of avoiding that issue, as it can cause a premature HG failure.

PS: Blind adherance to what a dealer uses for engine oil can be bad news. A recent survey of non owner maintained cars in the EU showed that 20% had the wrong oil in use. The figure for dealer maintained cars was nearly as high as that for Indy maintained ones.
The most common "Mistake" was using Castrol GTX (Or Magnetec) 5/30 or 15/40 instead of Edge 0/30 or 40, followed very closely by similar errors between Mobil 10/40 and M1 0/40.
All the receipts were correct, showing the much more expensive oils. Many of the mistakes made by Indy garages involved very expensive DPF rated oils like Edge or LM 0/30 and tractor oils like Fooochs 10/40 (Or similar), that can be obtained very cheaply from an farm parts supplier.

I always buy my own oil and filters, or ask the garage to order the OEM spec parts direct from a well known supplier and then watch the actual oil change. Once a local garage knows you do used oil analysis, the Germans always get things right, as it is fairly easy to spot the difference between an El cheapo dinosaur oil and a more expensive GTL or G4 Synthoil. GTX for example contains Sodium based additives that are not used by more expensive full synthetics and M1 oils contain nearly twice the amount of Calcium based detergents (Edge uses more Magnesium detergents, that are not in either GTX or Magnatec).

Never trust dealer or Indy barrel labels, as I went for a sniff around a top of the range sports car Indy in Ulm last year, who stocked a lot of expensive oils and he showed me his 20 liter cans and 50 liter drums. I checked all the labels and everything was good (Some are sealed to the drum with a marine sealant that can't be removed without destroying the label).
That place got into serious trouble after a friend of mine found chopped up 20 liter cans of cheap oils in some rubbish bags nearby. The local tax investigator found the transfer pump used for the drums in the basement!
The owners did a runner for the border, before facing false accounting and tax evasion fines, plus breach of envirnmental regulations charges. It's much easier to use those regs rather than direct fraud charges in such cases.

[skyship007]

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsl...uly-1-2014.php

That study of top major brand oil UOA results (Castrol Edge, GTX, Mobil 1, Amsoil and Ultra) is one hot topic with Castrol R&D and LM R&D.

Firstly the Germans are peeved that they got left out of the study, just because their Synthoil would have knocked the spots off the others.

Secondly Castrol are going to take a real pasting, as their Syntec (US for basic Edge) could not beat good old GTX!
I've mentioned that GTX is OK before in the V40 forum, but the results for a basic oil are real good, even before considering Magnatec has a slightly better base stock.

Yeabut, I would point out one thing about that study, it was mostly done on petrol engines that do not have a turbo AND it is vital for the life of a turbo to keep the top end clean, the same applies to the life of the HG.

Nearly all of the blocks would have been real clean, as oil sniffers that use Blackstone are not known for sludge.

So for non turbo engines GTX or Magnatec are good, BUT only if the block is already clean and you don't do too long an oil change interval (The study was not for the longer EU oil change interval, but good for the common 6K mile one figure).

For a turbo diesel, how clean the block is and additives matter, so I'm sticking with Ultra & Ceratec, as LM Synthoil is too expensive. I have to admit though that GTX 10/40 plus a pre oil change idle flush to clean the turbo lines might well be an interesting pair in wear rate terms.

[Darlo 1]

My eyes just fell out!!