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Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 01:13   #11
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Default RE: Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

>Hi Simon,
>
>I think you'll find that the person in question wanted the car
>to be mapped according to his specific needs and was not going
>for all-out performance (I'm sure he'll correct me if I
>misunderstood his requirements) so the TT hybrid is not
>actually being stretched to its limits by any account. I
>think the majority of people who go for 19Ts do that because
>they really don't know of any alternatives and in some cases
>are certainly advised against them. There is always an
>element of reaching into the unknown with something completely
>new, and tuning companies rather stick with methods /
>equipment they are used to as it makes it a lot easier to work
>with.
>

Ashok,

Here is one indisputable fact - the 19T is more than capable of sustaining efficient air flow reliably and safely at levels beyond the capabilities of the 850 engine. That is why it's a good choice of turbo, because it's tried and tested. It is also durable. I haven't seen any 19T turbo fail yet on any of the cars they have been fitted to as an aftermarket performance mod.

As an analogy, we all wear our underpants underneath our trousers, right? Why? Because it works. If someone wants to try a different route and wear them on the outside of their trousers, then that's fine. But don't be surprised if most people still go for the tried an tested "pants under the trousers" method.

Adam.
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 03:36   #12
Dan F
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Default RE: Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

>I have no dump valve at all not even a recirculating one.

Hi.

Has it not crossed your mind that you may get better performance still from your turbo if its blades weren't stalled and thrown violently into reverse every time you close the throttle?

Just something to munch on as I don't think ANY turbo will last too long without the little devices that allow the blades to carry on spinning (and here is the important bit) in the same direction when you close the throttle or change gear.

Cheers,
Dan.
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 03:42   #13
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Default RE: Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

Hi.

To be fair, having spent £xxx pounds on your 'hybrid' and £xxx on a TME map to suit (again after having spent £xxx on a RICA map) you are hardly going to say it is crap are you? ;)

Dan. :-)
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 03:47   #14
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Default RE: Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

>I feel that for performance a Hybrid is the only way to go! My
>turbo is stronger and will out last any 19T! And with the
>right mapping can and will out perform any 19T you want to
>throw at it. The hybrid I have fitted is far superiour to any
>19T end of story.

To add balance, can we have evidence of this please? Otherwise it is just your opinion.

>But as I have said already my car is mapped to MY driving
>style and MY needs before you start quoting my perfomance
>figures.

Not being funny, but from where I am standing (on the sidelines and not on anyones side as I like to know the facts as much as anyone else) that sounds like a sort of cop out... :(

Dan.
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 04:22   #15
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Default RE: Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

Hi.

Back late and can't sleep! So there are a few points I would like clarified so I have added them into the text. Don't anyone take it the wrong way but I hope it provides more food for thought, and also some more answers. :)

>Here ya go the post made by Dan from TT:
>
>The turbo is built to handle 22psi all day. While the 19T is a
>good turbo for a standard car, i would not recommend it to be
>used for running high boost.

Please define high boost.

>Yes, they come with a 360 degree
>thrust bearing as standard, but it really isn't up to the job
>of handling much more than standard boost.

Why isn't the bearing up to the job? Define standard boost, on which car?

>There is also the
>problem of the old comp wheel design and it's narrow working
>range.

Narrow working range? Flow charts for the 19T seem to contradict that.
Also is a 19Ts compressor wheel old in the same way a Garrett T series turbo is old to a Garrett GT series turbo?

>To be honest, it is nearly impossible to use a standard turbo
>as an uprate in place of another standard turbo.

??? Even if it is bigger and flows more efficiently for the same boost?

>While the 19T
>is the closest match you would find with regards to size
>(although it is still quite a bit smaller), it is not built to
>handle high boost pressures,

None of the turbos Volvo fitted are being pushed hard in any way as standard, as Volvo want them to last even under duress.

>nor is it specifically designed
>for the job you want it to do. It would be nearly impossible
>to put a warranty on a standard unit being run above its
>recommended boost pressure.

What IS the recommended pressure then?

>We can offer a two years warranty
>with our hybrids.

Nice....

>I would just like to point out, as well, that it has been
>mentioned that a Standard unit can run up to 26psi. This is
>true of most turbos, and if that is the case, what is the need
>for hybrids?

The need for hybrids comes from a set of very specific requirements that are not met by an off the shelf unit. Simple as that.

>A standard unit can not run much more than
>standard boost EFFICIENTLEY.

What is a standard unit? And what is standard boost?

>Tuning cars is more than just how
>much boost you can run.

Absolutely.

>You need to take into consideration
>things like heat as well. A standard turbo will get extremely
>hot at 26psi, thus counteracting the compressing effect and
>therefore reducing power and creating dangerous knock as the
>intercooler struggles to cool the charge air back down. You
>also encounter the problem of overspeed, due to the turbine
>side being too small.

How can the turbine on a 19T be too small? It is the same size as a standard 16T and if the 19T is running the same pressure as the standard 16T turbo it will not be going as fast to produce the same pressure. Likewise if the boost is raised, the 19T will still be flowing cooler air at 1.1 bar than a 16T, and (personally) I had my 16T running 1.1-1.2 bar for 2 whole years and the car went great with no problems at all and STILL doesn't use any oil!!

>This will cause premature wear on the
>bearings, hence the need for a larger turbine side.
>
>And alittle more:
>
>
>The T28 would be more responsive, has a substantially larger
>compressor wheel. In fact, to get technical, the diameter of a
>Td04hl wheel is 56mm with a 43.4mm inducer, whereas the T28
>wheel is 60mm diameter and has a 46.4mm inducer.

I thought the TD04 part was the the designation for the TURBINE side of the Mitsu turbos? The TD05 is bigger and the TD06 is bigger still.
It is the 15G, 16T etc nomenclature that is indicative of the compressor size. and the T or G designation is to do with the blades on the compressor.

>Therefore the
>T28 is 14% larger

Than what? compressor wheels were being compared, but it was not mentioned which one the dimensions were from.

>which would roughly equate to a 40bhp higher
>maximum working range. A 15G is capable of not much more than
>standard power, efficiently. The Mitsubishi compressor design
>is very old

Says who?

>with a full blade design,

What is a full blade design, and as opposed to what?

>which gives a very
>narrow operating range, and a common side-effect is the
>inducer chokes up. The T28 uses a new half blade design.

Which means what in English? Too much techno-babble.

>Our hybrid also comes with a substantially larger turbine
>side, designed by us for the Volvo, not a standard T28
>housing. Yes, it does require a fitting kit, but this is
>supplied. Yes, it does away with the dump valve, but this is
>not a necessity. Dump Valves are only needed on the standard
>Mitsubishi turbos due to there compressor design.

Sorry but that is utter rubbish!!! So why has my mate with his soon to be 550BHP Supra been advised to make sure he has a top class dump valve installed? Why to prevent compressor stall that is why!! Compressor stall = BAD, doesn't matter who makes the turbo.

>The narrow
>operating range

Evidence please?

>can cause surge, and a dump valve is used to
>help counter-act this problem.

Surge sounds like too much boost, therefore a dump valve is to counter too much boost?? I don't think they are you know...... They are there to prevent the excess boost in the inlet when the throttle plate closes from stalling the compressor blades and bringing them from XX,000 rpm to nothing in a blink of an eye which is NOT GOOD.

If the user would like a dump
>valve, it can be plumbed in elsewhere very easily.

I would......

>There ya go new I could find it.....Hope that answers your
>questions.

Actually it threw up a few more. ;)

Later all,
Dan.
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 09:12   #16
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Default RE: Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

Well i am far from convinced that a hybrid turbo is better than a 19T.
How many other people are using a hybrid on a T5?
What is the point of spending many hundreds of pounds on a turbo upgrade/remap if the end result is only a modest increase in bhp/torque? surely the whole point in upgrading is to get the largest power output without the engine going bang!
The older T5s we are told on standard internals can safely hold about 350 bhp (i guess this is flywheel). This is the figure i'm sure most people want after a turbo upgrade and remap, I know i did!
Paul.
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 10:43   #17
don kalmar union
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Default TT turbo v Mitsubishi.

I am allways surprised at the respected members here who make observations based on some knowledge of a subject when trying to support a position against a profoundly experienced and knowledgable party.

TT are amongst the World's leaders in their field. They have designed a special turbo based mainly on Garrett parts, in this particular case, to fit into a limited space normally occupied by a range of small, perfectly adequate road car units.

The 18 and 19T's can certainly form part of the uprating of Volvo's 4 and 5 pot engines, they are well priced from Volvo dealers, coming with their usual warranties in normal use. Many Volvo software rewriters have product to support their use, but, they are in extremis not suitable for the purpose for which they were not designed. That purpose being to maintain higher boost pressures for long periods.

The new TT unit is built to a length to fit the space occupied by some members of the Mitsubishi TDO4 familly which is short in our right hand drive cars because of the position of the steering column. TT have themselves cast some components to house their selected internal Garrett parts in this short length.

Their declared retail price is £635 plus VAT exchange for a unit that is built to sustain 1.6 bar with a 2 year Warranty. They are suggesting that it will form part of a package that will give 350bhp, maybe a bit more for our 5 pot engines.

How does this compare to 18 or 19T's vis a vis their ability to sustain anything near 1.6 bar for long periods without damage or increased wear. How does the TT price compare vis a vis the best deals on new 18 and 19Ts.

It should be born in mind that to make a new 18 or 19T into a 'hybrid' of a similar quality to the TT unit you are looking at additional parts, machining and labour costs amounting to over £500...so the TT hybrid is a fine deal.

Finally, I have some experience of the Mitsubishi standard turbos in competition and can say that a standard unit shows signs of wear internally, that need to be remedied, after about 15 hours of high speed sustained running. In this respect it will be interesting to find what that equates to in less sustained road use of these turbos in non standard applications.


Don.Norchi.

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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 11:22   #18
adieu
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Default RE: Hybrid Turbos by Dan Jones. Article No 5 in a Series by Experts in the Industry

>Hi.
>
>Back late and can't sleep! So there are a few points I would
>like clarified so I have added them into the text. Don't
>anyone take it the wrong way but I hope it provides more food
>for thought, and also some more answers. :)
>
>>Here ya go the post made by Dan from TT:
>>
>>The turbo is built to handle 22psi all day. While the 19T is
>a
>>good turbo for a standard car, i would not recommend it to
>be
>>used for running high boost.
>
>Please define high boost.
>
>>Yes, they come with a 360 degree
>>thrust bearing as standard, but it really isn't up to the
>job
>>of handling much more than standard boost.
>
>Why isn't the bearing up to the job? Define standard boost, on
>which car?
>
>>There is also the
>>problem of the old comp wheel design and it's narrow working
>>range.
>
>Narrow working range? Flow charts for the 19T seem to
>contradict that.
>Also is a 19Ts compressor wheel old in the same way a Garrett
>T series turbo is old to a Garrett GT series turbo?
>
>>To be honest, it is nearly impossible to use a standard
>turbo
>>as an uprate in place of another standard turbo.
>
>??? Even if it is bigger and flows more efficiently for the
>same boost?
>
>>While the 19T
>>is the closest match you would find with regards to size
>>(although it is still quite a bit smaller), it is not built
>to
>>handle high boost pressures,
>
>None of the turbos Volvo fitted are being pushed hard in any
>way as standard, as Volvo want them to last even under
>duress.
>
>>nor is it specifically designed
>>for the job you want it to do. It would be nearly impossible
>>to put a warranty on a standard unit being run above its
>>recommended boost pressure.
>
>What IS the recommended pressure then?
>
>>We can offer a two years warranty
>>with our hybrids.
>
>Nice....
>
>>I would just like to point out, as well, that it has been
>>mentioned that a Standard unit can run up to 26psi. This is
>>true of most turbos, and if that is the case, what is the
>need
>>for hybrids?
>
>The need for hybrids comes from a set of very specific
>requirements that are not met by an off the shelf unit. Simple
>as that.
>
>>A standard unit can not run much more than
>>standard boost EFFICIENTLEY.
>
>What is a standard unit? And what is standard boost?
>
>>Tuning cars is more than just how
>>much boost you can run.
>
>Absolutely.
>
>>You need to take into consideration
>>things like heat as well. A standard turbo will get
>extremely
>>hot at 26psi, thus counteracting the compressing effect and
>>therefore reducing power and creating dangerous knock as the
>>intercooler struggles to cool the charge air back down. You
>>also encounter the problem of overspeed, due to the turbine
>>side being too small.
>
>How can the turbine on a 19T be too small? It is the same size
>as a standard 16T and if the 19T is running the same pressure
>as the standard 16T turbo it will not be going as fast to
>produce the same pressure. Likewise if the boost is raised,
>the 19T will still be flowing cooler air at 1.1 bar than a
>16T, and (personally) I had my 16T running 1.1-1.2 bar for 2
>whole years and the car went great with no problems at all and
>STILL doesn't use any oil!!
>
>>This will cause premature wear on the
>>bearings, hence the need for a larger turbine side.
>>
>>And alittle more:
>>
>>
>>The T28 would be more responsive, has a substantially larger
>>compressor wheel. In fact, to get technical, the diameter of
>a
>>Td04hl wheel is 56mm with a 43.4mm inducer, whereas the T28
>>wheel is 60mm diameter and has a 46.4mm inducer.
>
>I thought the TD04 part was the the designation for the
>TURBINE side of the Mitsu turbos? The TD05 is bigger and the
>TD06 is bigger still.
>It is the 15G, 16T etc nomenclature that is indicative of the
>compressor size. and the T or G designation is to do with the
>blades on the compressor.
>
>>Therefore the
>>T28 is 14% larger
>
>Than what? compressor wheels were being compared, but it was
>not mentioned which one the dimensions were from.
>
>>which would roughly equate to a 40bhp higher
>>maximum working range. A 15G is capable of not much more
>than
>>standard power, efficiently. The Mitsubishi compressor
>design
>>is very old
>
>Says who?
>
>>with a full blade design,
>
>What is a full blade design, and as opposed to what?
>
>>which gives a very
>>narrow operating range, and a common side-effect is the
>>inducer chokes up. The T28 uses a new half blade design.
>
>Which means what in English? Too much techno-babble.
>
>>Our hybrid also comes with a substantially larger turbine
>>side, designed by us for the Volvo, not a standard T28
>>housing. Yes, it does require a fitting kit, but this is
>>supplied. Yes, it does away with the dump valve, but this is
>>not a necessity. Dump Valves are only needed on the standard
>>Mitsubishi turbos due to there compressor design.
>
>Sorry but that is utter rubbish!!! So why has my mate with his
>soon to be 550BHP Supra been advised to make sure he has a top
>class dump valve installed? Why to prevent compressor stall
>that is why!! Compressor stall = BAD, doesn't matter who makes
>the turbo.
>
>>The narrow
>>operating range
>
>Evidence please?
>
>>can cause surge, and a dump valve is used to
>>help counter-act this problem.
>
>Surge sounds like too much boost, therefore a dump valve is to
>counter too much boost?? I don't think they are you know......
>They are there to prevent the excess boost in the inlet when
>the throttle plate closes from stalling the compressor blades
>and bringing them from XX,000 rpm to nothing in a blink of an
>eye which is NOT GOOD.
>
>If the user would like a dump
>>valve, it can be plumbed in elsewhere very easily.
>
>I would......
>
>>There ya go new I could find it.....Hope that answers your
>>questions.
>
>Actually it threw up a few more. ;)
>
>Later all,
>Dan.



Maybe Dan from TT should answer your questions as I have stated i'm no expert on Turbo's just pushing a product that I think is great at it's job. Maybe you should come to the next C/B meet and drive my car, then you can see just what it's like.

And as for not getting power gains as I've said many times my car is mapped for everyday driving and to last!

Regards

Iain
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 11:58   #19
sholtby
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Default RE: TT turbo v Mitsubishi.

It is perhaps unfortunate that the one person we know of who has fitted a TT hybrid turbo has chosen to tune his car for long engine and turbo life unlike 99% of us who are interested in performance. However I still find his dyno results very strange.
What we need to see are the results of someone looking to acheive maximum safe performance from the TT turbo. ie running 1.2 to 1.3 bar to the rev limiter and producing 19T figures like 280 bhp at the wheels. That is what would have made me consider buying one.

Simon
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Old Oct 8th, 2005, 12:14   #20
don kalmar union
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Default RE: TT turbo v Mitsubishi.

Simon,

It is only recently that I spent my money on the 'hybrid' 18T that I have on my old S70. We really have to wait for someone else to make the choise of the TT turbo on another car.

For myself, my S60 runs comfortably in its class, if we were to want to move up a class in the Britcar circus we would need another 60 to 70 bhp to be on a level with the least modified M3's and then loose another 150Kg or so. And have the expense of running a much modified car.

Hopefully, a potential customer will turn up soon and we can get a TT/TME car out for us all to take stock . Marco will be here a couple more times before the end of the year so we can get some good basic callibrations for my library. Certainly, with Ian's car he has made some sensible choices and ended up with a real gem.

Regards,

Don.Norchi.

www.kalmar-union.com

TME software for serious Volvo Tuning.
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