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suddenly starter motor wont engage

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Old Feb 13th, 2019, 22:53   #21
aardvarkash10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshired5 View Post
Both.
Here is a solenoid being operated disconnected from any starter. No brushes present or needed
https://youtu.be/bTj_lVMmgX4
correct as far as it goes, but not complete.

The video shows the hold in winding only operating. The hold-in is insufficient in itself to pull the pinion into mesh, which is why the pull in winding exists.

To go even further, the current through the pull-in passes through the starter and allows the armature to rotate slowly. This assists the pinion mesh with the ring gear.

http://autosystempro.com/starter-con...it-components/
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Old Feb 13th, 2019, 23:09   #22
Laird Scooby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheshired5 View Post
Both.
Here is a solenoid being operated disconnected from any starter. No brushes present or needed
https://youtu.be/bTj_lVMmgX4
Totally different scenario in that to what we're talking about - the solenoid has been removed for testing and a permanent +12v feed has been croc-clipped onto the exciter wire. The earth leac is being touched on the other solenoid terminal - in this case the pull-in terminal or the main output terminal of the heavy current switching part of the solenoid - i.e. the feed to the motor.

Perfectly normal test in an auto-electrical workshop - not so easy when the starter is still on the car and you're trying to diagnose the reason for sudden failure.
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Old Feb 13th, 2019, 23:30   #23
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Originally Posted by Laird Scooby View Post
Totally different scenario in that to what we're talking about - the solenoid has been removed for testing and a permanent +12v feed has been croc-clipped onto the exciter wire. The earth leac is being touched on the other solenoid terminal - in this case the pull-in terminal or the main output terminal of the heavy current switching part of the solenoid - i.e. the feed to the motor.
Try this video then where @ 1min40 it clearly shows solenoid operation using the starter body as the ground. https://youtu.be/n-RzcsdFoRQ

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Originally Posted by aardvarkash10 View Post
correct as far as it goes, but not complete.

The video shows the hold in winding only operating.
Hang on..... You've gone from definitively saying the solenoid is grounded through the brushes to conceding that this isn't necessarily the case.
You've also said that solenoids don't stick when they can but to be honest, I'm not here to debate.

We all maintain old cars with no assistance from professionals so whatever we're doing must be either correct or as near as..... Unless we're all fixing cars by blind luck.

Anyway, I'm out of the discussion.
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Old Feb 13th, 2019, 23:45   #24
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Brilliant guys a 3 way duelling banjos,right over the top of my head,but most entertaining,cheers.
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Old Feb 14th, 2019, 00:02   #25
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Brilliant guys a 3 way duelling banjos,right over the top of my head,but most entertaining,cheers.
Funny thing is, Ash and I were saying the same thing from two different angles and also picking up on bits the other hadn't said for whatever reason.

If you investigate how a pre-negaged starter motor operates, i'll let you draw your won conclusions but i'm confident you'll work out what's what!
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Old Feb 14th, 2019, 00:36   #26
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Originally Posted by cheshired5 View Post
Try this video then where @ 1min40 it clearly shows solenoid operation using the starter body as the ground. https://youtu.be/n-RzcsdFoRQ
*sigh* Yes, because the starter motor brushes are grounded through the armature and to the starter body. Take a look again at the circuit diagram that Dave posted. If it helps, trace the two solenoid circuits in two different colours - the paths are obvious and obviously different.

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Originally Posted by cheshired5 View Post
Hang on..... You've gone from definitively saying the solenoid is grounded through the brushes to conceding that this isn't necessarily the case.
You've also said that solenoids don't stick when they can but to be honest, I'm not here to debate.
No, I said there are two circuits in the solendoid which have two different grounding points. See my point above.

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We all maintain old cars with no assistance from professionals so whatever we're doing must be either correct or as near as..... Unless we're all fixing cars by blind luck.
For some, it would seem that blind luck may well be the correct answer.
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Old Feb 15th, 2019, 11:00   #27
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Another forum member who has been following this thread has reminded me it might also be the Volvoguard system inhibiting the starter. However the fact it seemed slow the first time it nearly didn't start does tend to point towards brushes and/or a bad earth somewhere.
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