Petrol or Diesel

[andy_d]

Originally Posted by Zebster

The addition of benzene to petrol could also have led to a spike in cancers, as could the growing popularity of log burners or even the popularity of smoking to women? Or something else?

Whilst criticising diesels, please do bear in mind that petrol exhaust is also a toxic blend of highly undesirable products. I do believe that once we have mostly made the inevitable switch to either electric or hydrogen fuel cell transport then we shall look back at our currently over-extended use of fossil-fuelled vehicles with a mixture of horror and amusement. But we have always been slow to adapt; I can barely believe that steam engines were still in frequent service as recently as the 1960s!

whilst Rightly criticising Diesels Please DO bear in mind that the Nastys they chuck out HAS been know about since the 1970s, and Nothing , no dpf/add blue/eu emissions rating has or can EVER change that.

you can Not defend the un-defendable so dont bother trying

as for the "EV" or "scifi" methods that you meantion

Please do have a Big cup of coffee, and wake up in the real world sometime soon eh
closed minds - not needed in 2021

[andy_d]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

What do you mean, the addition of benzene to petrol?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene

It's present in crude oil so while it may be reintroduced to petrol to improve the octane (anti-knock) rating, petrol will still naturally contain it, as will diesel. However i do agree that any vehicle exhaust contains nasty stuff and on the smoking aspect, in general, whether male or female, that has been on the decline since the 90s, if not earlier. More likely, if benzene is the culrpit of increases in cancer incidents, it is because it is often present in soft drinks.

The popularity of log burners is a tricky one, after all many homes had open fires on which was burned among other things, logs. That was generally before the 1980s but by then central heating had more or less taken over, except in some very old houses.

Interesting though those arguments are, the timeline is generally against them as being an alternative source of increased cancer problems.

Given that diesel fumes are known to be carcinogenic and the timeline, increase in popularity of diesels ties in with increases in cancer.

Maybe the scientists already have worked this out but the various govts around the planet have decided to keep this quiet for fear of the backlash if the general public found out.

Strangely the school library book i referred to where i first found that fact had disappeared the next time i wanted to look something up in it, apparently it was no longer on the curriculum list of books and its replacement had nothing about the negative effects of diesel. It struck me as Orwellian at the time but i put it down to the fact i was studying "1984" for my English Lit - little did i know the first instinct was almost certainly correct!

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

you can add to the list of "cases risen since diesel became popular"
Asthma and a (large) raft of other breathing issues + conditions.

what is Does show is the ability of "marketing" and "hype" to remove "the ability to think for self"

so so many utterly selfish people STILL believe "its cheaper" and "its got a dpf its cleaner"
its VERY nice that the content of their bank account is FAR more valuable than peoples Health,,,,,,




fyi , if anyone is in Any doubt, i detest diesel cars And the people that push them /use them for the Wrong reason £££ in there bank account,,

[S60D5-185]

Originally Posted by Welton

To be fair; a good plodder and workhorse would be a (dare I say) VAG 1.9 PD engine'd car without DPF etc.

Trouble with 2000's petrol engines is, although simple, they are mostly NA, not very flexible to drive, and suffer poor-ish mpg unlike the new crop of small petrol turbo's which deliver diesel-like performance and decent mpg.

3 years ago I bought my daughter a 2002 Audi A3 1.9tdi 100 bhp.

Bought it off a very good friend who had owned it from new and it had 55k in it.

£800 changed hands and the build quality and rock solid PD engine have made it worth every penny particularly as it is now on 98K

[Zebster]

Originally Posted by andy_d

whilst Rightly criticising Diesels Please DO bear in mind that the Nastys they chuck out HAS been know about since the 1970s, and Nothing , no dpf/add blue/eu emissions rating has or can EVER change that.

you can Not defend the un-defendable so dont bother trying

as for the "EV" or "scifi" methods that you meantion

Please do have a Big cup of coffee, and wake up in the real world sometime soon eh
closed minds - not needed in 2021

I'm genuinely unsure why you felt the need to direct personal abuse at me just because i expressed an opinion with which you disagree! I'm assuming that perhaps you've been drinking, which might also explain the paragraph that abruptly ended in mid-rant without making any sort of point? LOL

Either way, you didn't really understand my post if you thought it was support for diesel fuel... for clarity I was merely pointing out that burning ANY fossil fuel is going to produce toxic emissions, and arguing about which is 'least damaging' will be seen in the much cleaner future as pointlessly splitting hairs.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Zebster

Either way, you didn't really understand my post if you thought it was support for diesel fuel... for clarity I was merely pointing out that burning ANY fossil fuel is going to produce toxic emissions, and arguing about which is 'least damaging' will be seen in the much cleaner future as pointlessly splitting hairs.

Purely as an "FYI", i also took your post as defending diesels. Any fossil fuel will produce emissions, harmful or otherwise so i think a more pragmatic approach now is damage-limitation.

Another observation of mine, growing up as a kid in the 70s, hedgerows were plentiful and of varied plants, shrubs, trees etc. Since diseasels became popular, hedgerows have been in decline.
If that is down to the popularity of diseasels then not only are we destroying our health with them but that of the planet. Remember before this we mostly had petrol cars yet hedgerows still flourished. To add more weight to the argument of petrols being healthier, most cars weren't regulated in terms of mixture back then, for an example check the latest MoT emissions regs where older cars are only subject to a visible test because they weren't capable of lean burn or anything approaching it.

That leads me on to catalytic converters - introduced as mandatory in the early 90s, they produce hydrogen sulphide gas when they work - stinks of rotten eggs and is highly toxic. Many cars by the late 80s were capable of passing the current regs without a cat (i've personally had late 80s cars in for MoT and the tester has put it back on the ramps to try and find the cat!) but the dominant votes on this went to the EU who at that time were not capable of producing engines that would meet the cat test without a cat. This was all agreed at the same time as diseasels were decided on being the "green solution".

Someone somewhere either didn't listen to good advice or had an expectation of brown envelopes i think!

[Zebster]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Purely as an "FYI", i also took your post as defending diesels. Any fossil fuel will produce emissions, harmful or otherwise so i think a more pragmatic approach now is damage-limitation.

Another observation of mine, growing up as a kid in the 70s, hedgerows were plentiful and of varied plants, shrubs, trees etc. Since diseasels became popular, hedgerows have been in decline.
If that is down to the popularity of diseasels then not only are we destroying our health with them but that of the planet. Remember before this we mostly had petrol cars yet hedgerows still flourished. To add more weight to the argument of petrols being healthier, most cars weren't regulated in terms of mixture back then, for an example check the latest MoT emissions regs where older cars are only subject to a visible test because they weren't capable of lean burn or anything approaching it.

That leads me on to catalytic converters - introduced as mandatory in the early 90s, they produce hydrogen sulphide gas when they work - stinks of rotten eggs and is highly toxic. Many cars by the late 80s were capable of passing the current regs without a cat (i've personally had late 80s cars in for MoT and the tester has put it back on the ramps to try and find the cat!) but the dominant votes on this went to the EU who at that time were not capable of producing engines that would meet the cat test without a cat. This was all agreed at the same time as diseasels were decided on being the "green solution".

Someone somewhere either didn't listen to good advice or had an expectation of brown envelopes i think!

There may be other reasons for an apparent decline in hedgerows, perhaps to do with the massively increasing usage of personal vehicles over the last 50 years? As you say, petrol vehicles have not always been so relatively clean and you forgot to mention the lead that was added to petrol and has since been shown to have stunted brain development in children.

Obviously the emissions of vehicles - whether petrol or diesel - will necessarily follow the emissions standards in force when that vehicle is sold. Manufacturers have miraculously made huge improvements when forced by legislation to make improvements and the current Euro 6 at long last requires diesels to meet the same emission limits as their petrol cousins (an overdue equivalence, in my view). Some of you here will nevertheless challenge the relative cleanliness of diesels, specifically highlighting certain aspects of diesel emissions that you find particularly offensive... fair enough, but no doubt the next generation of emission standards (Euro 7?) will act to bring about continuous improvements to both petrol and diesel vehicle emissions, in line with environmental demands. And manufacturers WILL somehow achieve the required improvements!

[Whippy]

I think that from a power / work / fuel economy point of view the answer has to be diesel. However with pollution controls becoming ever more stringent it simply won't be cost effective to bring engines into line with new Euro regs soon, also with such increased pollution control measures this increases complexity leading to increased unreliability and servicing costs. We are seeing the last of the great workhorse engines. Petrol? Going the same way with most manufacturers now fitting PPF equipment.

Go hydrogen! You can do it!

[XC90Mk1]

Originally Posted by andy_d

you can add to the list of "cases risen since diesel became popular"
Asthma and a (large) raft of other breathing issues + conditions.

what is Does show is the ability of "marketing" and "hype" to remove "the ability to think for self"

so so many utterly selfish people STILL believe "its cheaper" and "its got a dpf its cleaner"
its VERY nice that the content of their bank account is FAR more valuable than peoples Health,,,,,,



fyi , if anyone is in Any doubt, i detest diesel cars And the people that push them /use them for the Wrong reason £££ in there bank account,,

I think in most respects it highlights your ignorance. Euro 1-4 yes. You are correct. But you must ‘google’ Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesel and petrols to see the PPM outputs etc which are similar now between Diesel and Petrol vehicles.

I expect my Euro 6 diesel is cleaner than the car listed in your signature.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Zebster

There may be other reasons for an apparent decline in hedgerows, perhaps to do with the massively increasing usage of personal vehicles over the last 50 years? As you say, petrol vehicles have not always been so relatively clean and you forgot to mention the lead that was added to petrol and has since been shown to have stunted brain development in children.

Obviously the emissions of vehicles - whether petrol or diesel - will necessarily follow the emissions standards in force when that vehicle is sold. Manufacturers have miraculously made huge improvements when forced by legislation to make improvements and the current Euro 6 at long last requires diesels to meet the same emission limits as their petrol cousins (an overdue equivalence, in my view). Some of you here will nevertheless challenge the relative cleanliness of diesels, specifically highlighting certain aspects of diesel emissions that you find particularly offensive... fair enough, but no doubt the next generation of emission standards (Euro 7?) will act to bring about continuous improvements to both petrol and diesel vehicle emissions, in line with environmental demands. And manufacturers WILL somehow achieve the required improvements!

Hmmmm, not sure on stunted brain development in children and besides, lead was gone from the early 90s yet breathing difficulties have increased dramatically. That can also effect brain development if the brain doesn't get enough oxygen......

Almost all major manufacturers no longer off ICE powered cars anyway and many commercial divisions are going over the electric or hydrogen power. Euro 7 will largely be academic with no internal combustion engines left. The engines already out here won't be forced to comply with Euro7 because they weren't designed to.

As for BEVs and hydrogen powered vehicles, i think we're storing up a whole cartload of trouble. Already the infrastructure has proved fallible - witness the reports in the media of that couple from Kent or Surrey (can't remember which it was now) who traveled to Bournemouth in the BEV Porsche Tincan. Allegedly a range of 260 ish miles it was nearly dead after half that (130 miles) driving to Bournemouth. It's reasonable to assume that as business owners that had bought this thing they should be aware of charging the night before in preparation so on that basis, it's fair to say that particular model doesn't live up to the sales hype. In fact i did some research at the time and even Porsche were quoting the range at sub-200 miles (think it was 170 from memory) in ideal conditions. Cold, wet and windy in early December wouldn't be ideal conditions though! LIghts, heater, demisters etc all in use plus sat-nag, stereo etc.

Another example on another forum, a member was issued with a new Peugeot electric van. First day it did 68 miles and stopped - flat. Second day, thinking it was just a blip due to perhaps incomplete charging before delivery, started out with a fully charged battery and got to 68 miles again and stopped.
His previous fossil van was returned to him.
Just for fun, his job is installing EV charge points! (At least that's what i understand from what he's said of it anyway)

Next thing, the earth doesn't have the mineral resources for making the batteries on EVs and i seriously doubt the batteries will last anywhere near as long as they're guaranteed for.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/...use-goals.html

Have a read of that from the Natural History Museum. You'd think they'd welcome BEVs if they were any good wouldn't you?

As for hydrogen, almost a perfect fuel - burns to give water/steam. Cleanest possible fuel it would seem. However it's very voltaile and how long until a faulty fuel cell causes a monumental explosion?

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by XC90Mk1

I think in most respects it highlights your ignorance. Euro 1-4 yes. You are correct. But you must ‘google’ Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesel and petrols to see the PPM outputs etc which are similar now between Diesel and Petrol vehicles.

I expect my Euro 6 diesel is cleaner than the car listed in your signature.

On paper, yes but those are the emissions that can be measured.

It's the microparticulates that diesels throw out that can't be measured that are causing the problems. Besides, if they had got the designs right in the first place they wouldn't need successive Euro n+1 levels of emissions compliance. Remember Dieselgate! It throws the emissions test for new cars in huge question, particularly diesels!

Don't forget most people don't ever get diesels properly warm and thrash them to burn off the deposits in the system that will still cause problems. At least petrol cars get hot enough fairly quickly so don't need such a thrashing to remove the harmful deposits.