Volvo vs Bosch injectors - Euro III D5.

[foggyjames]

Howdy folks! My Euro III D5 has been running like a bit of a bag of spanners when cold for a while now, and it's often not that great when warm either. I've been monitoring the situation via VIDA, and the trim on #5 (which it has been suggested to me has more of an effect of perceived roughness than the others, given its proximity to the top mount) has been rising over time, and is now pegged at 35.00mm^3, which I suspect is the maximum trim! A leak-back test is next, but I'm pretty sure I'll need a new injector. However, I have a few questions...

1) Where do you guys get your leak-back test kits from? Mike certainly has a very neat setup.

2) Is there a definitive answer to the Volvo vs Bosch debate?

Last week, I did a load of reading, and settled on the following...
Volvo injectors come in three "grades", according to how they're flow-benched after production. As long as you swap like-for-like, there should be no need to reprogram anything. Bosch only do one grade, and who knows how the hell that works re: Volvo's grading...the consensus appearing to be that you need to either run all-Volvo, or all-Bosch. Something doesn't feel right here. How can the two possibly be compatible? They're all made by Bosch, when all's said and done...so why two regimes?

Earlier, I called the local independent diesel engineers, and the guy was plainly not amused by my tale of "grades" of injectors. He said he'd never heard so much rubbish in his life, or words to that effect. He said he'd worked on dozens of D5s, and he just drops the one type of Bosch injector into them all, no programming, and it works a treat. They can't both be right...surely?!

I then called another diesel specialist, attempting to get a consensus from the Bosch side of things. The chap couldn't have told much of a different story to the first if he tried. He said that - although he didn't know about D5s off the top of his head - it is certainly possible to buy different "classes" of injectors, based on flow-benching at the factory, direct from Bosch. That's the first I've heard of that, and if it's correct, it's pretty encouraging news.

Finally, I called a company the previous chap recommended. They're a fairly big concern, with several branches. They do injector rebuilds if it's part of the "low tech" part of the injector (my words, not theirs), and really seemed to know their stuff. He described different symptoms, and the associated problems, and one of the scenarios exactly matched what I'm getting (rough idle, smoothing out with higher RPM; caused by a worn needle, essentially, affecting the spray pattern). Interestingly, he said that particular fault wouldn't show up as a significant result on a leak-off test, as it's not losing fuel...it's just not spraying it evenly! He said that problems which show up a leak-back imbalance are mainly associated with bad starting (hot or cold).

I think I'm going to pop it round to them in a couple of days, complete with VIDA/Dice, to get them to have a look and a think. They're happy to spare me
15 minutes for some advice, and still assist if I DIY the removal / refitting, etc. All sounds rather positive, assuming they really do know what they're doing. The guy mentioned having a high pressure flowbench and various things, so it's possible they're not dubious. I'm sure I can insist on a new injector if needs be, but the pricing does make a rebuild look appealing, even if it just turns out to be a lesson learned.

In the meantime, does anyone have any further information about the Volvo vs Bosch situation? Specifically, can you buy "graded" Bosch injectors? To summarise my findings so far...
1) The internets says you can't get graded Bosch injectors.
2) One guy said absolutely not, and sounded annoyed that I even mentioned it.
3) One guy said yes you can in general, although he didn't know specifically about D5s off the top of his head.
4) The guys at the service place seemed to agree with guy 3, but went on to say that it's not necessary to replace the entire injector in most cases (unless the housing is damaged). *If* they know what they're doing, that makes a lot of sense.

Can anyone spread any sanity on the subject?!

cheers

James

[Yosser]

At the risk of taking this a little off topic, can I ask (roughly) where you do this in VIDA?:

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I've been monitoring the situation via VIDA, and the trim on #5 (which it has been suggested to me has more of an effect of perceived roughness than the others, given its proximity to the top mount) has been rising over time, and is now pegged at 35.00mm^3, which I suspect is the maximum trim!

I think I may have similar issues as the car noticeably smooths out at higher rpm.

From the little I've read, I recall that (in Vida I think) there is a grade of injector that can be fitted without any reprogramming - maybe thats what the first guy was familiar with.

[LJD]

Buy Genuine volvo ones S/H from a good dealer who has tested them

i did and had great results .

try "Huddersfield volvo breakers'
07786446216

[outnumbered]

for your info James and others to make you aware it states in VIDA that you can put 2 different class injector to the ones you have in any more than two then you have to re class with Dice to the strongest number.
there are no Bosch classes you get that injector.
i have changed from class 1 to class 2 with no ill effects for test purposes only.
for yosser.
click on veh comms
click on ECM.
click on advanced you should then see the injector test
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=146869
thanks
mike

[Yosser]

Originally Posted by outnumbered

for yosser.
click on veh comms
click on ECM.
click on advanced you should then see the injector test
http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=146869
thanks
mike

Ok, I've just been out and connected up to the car but when I go to Vehicle Comms>ECM>advanced I only get the options "programming optimising parameters" and "programming fuel pump (FP) start diesel" - there isn't anything about an injector test!

The version I am running is 2011A if that makes a difference.

[outnumbered]

this is what i get with a 04 D5 without being hooked up to the car.
mike

[Yosser]

Sadly that option just isn't there for me, 2002 v70 d5.

[outnumbered]

this is what i get for a 2002 V 70 D5
mike

[Yosser]

Originally Posted by outnumbered

this is what i get for a 2002 V 70 D5
mike

Thats what I get - except without the injector test option!

I'll maybe try to locate a copy of 2008C as you're using and try that.

[foggyjames]

I'm running 2011D and I have that option (although mine is a 2005 car)...so it's not that your version of VIDA is too new.

Mike...wow...those trim values for your car are incredibly low. I've tested a couple, and never seen them that good...nice work! I don't have the screen shots to hand, but mine go something like...
#1: +07.xx
#2: +08.xx
#3: +14.xx
#4: +00.00
#5: +35.00

#5 is the one I'm looking at first, for obvious reasons. It appears to be at maximum trim (hence the .00).

I haven't got as far as actually attempting to get Bosch part numbers for the different Volvo classes, but two different Bosch dealers thought it was possible. I will have a go at getting part numbers out of them in a couple of weeks, when I'm back from holiday. If there is indeed only one Bosch part number for all, it does beg the question why Volvo have classes and Bosch don't. That seems like a pretty fundamental question - they can't both be right - either they need grading, or they don't. The guy here in Lincoln told me the Volvo classes were a load of crap, basically, and there is only one part. The other two (who have no dealings with Volvo parts) said they'd certainly heard about "classed" Bosch injectors for other cars. It sounds to me like the water is very, very muddy indeed. I don't like muddy water when there are hundreds of pounds at stake. I can't help but feel that the water is muddy because some of the trade don't actually know the answers.

My current plan is to remove #5 injector, and take it to the people who appear to be talking sense for inspection. Given my symptoms (rough idle, 'chugging' at low RPM, smoothing out at higher RPM - which they described before I mentioned it), they're expecting to see a scored needle causing a bad spray pattern, which can be replaced for £95+vat, assuming no further complications. A problem with consumables (washers, etc) in the high pressure side of the injector typically costs £60-70+vat to sort out. If the body is damaged/worn and rebuild is impossible, exchange units can be supplied. What he said sounded very plausible. Another friend who knows plenty about the subject said that non-piezo (i.e. solenoid) injectors can be rebuilt happily if the person doing it knows what they're doing.

They appear to be the people that the trade in most of the East Midlands use, and they have Bosch (computerised) flowbenches on site. The guys in the workshop there said that if my diagnostics were reporting that level of trim, I should just pull it out and get it inspected and flowbenched. I'm honestly not sure what to think, as everyone (in the trade) seems to be saying something slightly different, but at least these guys are talking in detail, and what they're saying makes sense.

I'm very tempted to take them up on the offer of a replacement needle, assuming that's what they find. The refurb carries a one year warranty, and I have the kit to prove whether or not it has worked...so I can go back to them if it's not right. For just under £115, that seems like a worthwhile experiment. If the idle smooths out and VIDA reports a reduction in trim (especially if it ends up as low as Mike's), we'll know it has had an effect, and I can move on to the ones which are being trimmed less. If it doesn't work, I'll know to just keep it simple and go to Volvo. If that approach ends up with near-zero trim (like Mike's), I'll know that that is the safe bet.

What I just don't like is the differences in what different folk (in the trade) are saying. There's this confusion over the class situation, and that almost none of them are talking about actual fault conditions. I get the distinct impression that they simply don't know.

LJD - do you know what they're doing to test them? Seeing if they cause codes...doing a "butt test" for vibration...running the VIDA trim test?

cheers

James