What's the problem with electric cars?

[Fastpatsilents]

Originally Posted by SnineT

https://www.electrive.com/2022/10/18...ons-in-the-uk/


https://www.cummins.com/engines/hydrogen


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjKwSF9gT8



All links posted in good faith not a stick contest, hth you get up to date with a few things you won't see in the media.

So Shell "fuelling stations are removing it" are not removing it, they have closed the company had three dedicated hydrogen outlets which they have closed.

Which is why hydrogen fuel cells are the direction of travel for cars.

https://www.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen

[SnineT]

Originally Posted by Fastpatsilents

Which is why hydrogen fuel cells are the direction of travel for cars.


https://www.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen

We'll have to wait and see, if anyone does perfect it it'll be Toyota, however the one real problem with hydrogen is it takes more energy to make than the end product, they may conquer that they may not but if it's as good as they say there wouldn't be EV's only hydrogen powered cars today.

Funny thing the Mirai was around £80k to buy and if it still is it makes it look a bargain against the EX90.

The problem with fuel cell is you need a Hindenberg at one end and a firework factory at the other, over complex and not at all safe imo.

[Benzine]

Originally Posted by SnineT

Yes and that's the point I'm trying to make, a petrol car is almost as bad in that it also has a flash point, a diesel requires vaporised compression to light up so once again proving to be the most frugal, torqued, "safe" fuel available.

A petrol car is worse than battery statistically. Petrol scares the whatsit out of me how quick it goes up. A diesel engine requires compression but diesel fuel doesn't, it'll still go up when the conditions are right (e.g. comes into contact with hot components like a exhaust manifold/turbo/my body). It's auto ignition temperature is actually lower than petrol.

Originally Posted by Forg

Also if I'm honest I'm not yet convinced of the environmental impact of me buying an EV. I know there's a LOT of garbage out there promoted by the oil industry & their conservative political lackeys, but mass-produced battery tech still uses materials which do a helluva lot of destruction obtaining & refining them; and transporting that stuff around isn't being done via sustainable methods. I know flow-battery tech uses much less nasty materials, but that's not what's for sale today.

This is something I hear a lot. Out of interest, did you ever share such concern in the past for ICE vehicles in the same way? So many rare metals are used in the making of cars and fuel refining, I can't get my head around why now it's suddenly a concern. From the articles and posts I see it's almost as if certain large companies, reliant of the sale of such old hat tech, don't want people to switch over.

[SnineT]

Originally Posted by Benzine

A petrol car is worse than battery statistically. Petrol scares the whatsit out of me how quick it goes up. A diesel engine requires compression but diesel fuel doesn't, it'll still go up when the conditions are right (e.g. comes into contact with hot components like a exhaust manifold/turbo/my body). It's auto ignition temperature is actually lower than petrol.





This is something I hear a lot. Out of interest, did you ever share such concern in the past for ICE vehicles in the same way? So many rare metals are used in the making of cars and fuel refining, I can't get my head around why now it's suddenly a concern. From the articles and posts I see it's almost as if certain large companies, reliant of the sale of such old hat tech, don't want people to switch over.

Statistically the petrol car will remain higher for a while due to sheer numbers vs, about the diesel though I'd not considered the surface ignition factor only the split tank venting route so I've learned something every day today with that one.


I'm wondering if this whole thing is to ration fossil fuel to make it last longer as it's not infinite in it's supply, so if you can get 50% of the demand out of the way then you have 50% more product in reserve for the future. I think EV has it's place, it's in small to medium urban only vehicles, speeds won't be reached to make it dangerous and distances will be within the don't get stranded range. I actually like the idea of them but I do feel they've been rushed to market in a way and there are lessons will be learnt speeches to come hence the motorway pile up post.

I see you're still enjoying "my" avatar

[Fastpatsilents]

Originally Posted by SnineT

Statistically the petrol car will remain higher for a while due to sheer numbers vs,


I think EV has it's place, it's in small to medium urban only vehicles, speeds won't be reached to make it dangerous :

That is literally what "statistically" means. As a proportion of the cars on the road they more likely to be involved in a fire.

Dont tell Porsche

https://www.porsche.com/uk/models/ta...models/taycan/

0-60 in 2.8 seconds, 300 mile range. What is not to like?

[concrete]

I was quite enjoying Geoff Buys Cars, especially his love of oldish Volvos, but his later videos appear to be going down the conspiracy route, he even puts a tin-foil hat on, perhaps in jest. There’s good money to be earned on YouTube attracting the conspiracy loons.

I was chatting to my ex AA mate today who ironically had to get the AA out to his wife’s car (crappy bmw mini). He asked the guy how reliable electric cars are and the guy told him they get just as many call outs as they do for petrol and diesel cars.

I think there’s a place for electric cars, but they are currently way too expensive and the charging infrastructure isn’t anywhere near good enough.

Also the mining for the materials is very controversial.

I think a hybrid is probably the best compromise for now and maybe forever.

P.S. Wyoming are looking at getting rid of electric cars altogether.

[Forg]

Originally Posted by Offgrid

There are some nasty emissions from charging and discharging batteries, but nobody talks about that.

This is news to me, so I searched it ... I think it only happens when the battery is overcharged & overheated, and for cars they control the charging very firmly. So I don't think this is an issue for cars, at least not until they start playing up; and when that happens, is it as bad as an ICE where the cat is a bit old or it's out of tune?

eg. https://eepower.com/news/100-toxic-g...-about-fires/#

I gather the US is having to upgrade some roads because of the extra weight of EVs.

In a land where everyone rides around in F150's? I suspect something has been exaggerated.

In fact I believe that Wyoming has a bill in the pipeline to ban the sale of EVs in the state.

That was shot down quick-smart.
It was solely about protecting oil jobs, that's all they said it was about, there was no claim about negatives of EV's except for a fear of jobs being lost in the oil industry.

I've seen various estimative of the climate damage resulting from the manufacture and distribution of EVs, and it seems it may be some 20 times the damage caused by my driving my 35 year old 740. It seems madness to push the manufacture of them if we really are at the tipping point of climate change.

Well there are a few things here.
Firstly I can't find modern numbers. The numbers that I've seen bandied-about were presented as being about EV's but were actually for Priuses & they were from 15 years ago. So given the lies the oil industry is renowned for, it's hard to know what's true.
Second, nobody is saying "get rid of your 740 and buy an EV", it's all about new cars which were going to be ICE purchases anyway. From an environmental impact, you're better running the car you already have, even if it's a little flaky in terms of emissions.

Originally Posted by Benzine

This is something I hear a lot. Out of interest, did you ever share such concern in the past for ICE vehicles in the same way? So many rare metals are used in the making of cars and fuel refining, I can't get my head around why now it's suddenly a concern. From the articles and posts I see it's almost as if certain large companies, reliant of the sale of such old hat tech, don't want people to switch over.

Nah I don't think there's any doubt that the amount of that stuff you need for batteries is a lot more than in an ICE car.
Lithium's a pretty bad one, and batteries without it are being developed, however with the rise of the EV there're going to be scads of Li-based batteries around.

There does still seem to be an issue surrounding carbon emissions during manufacture, too. I mean if it takes 15 years for a newly-made ICE to catch-up with a "polluting old one" in terms of CO2 emissions due to what's generated during manufacture, then it can't be great if EV's generate 75% more CO2 during manufacture due to the batteries:
https://www.industryweek.com/technol...rbon-footprint

[Tannaton]

Originally Posted by Benzine

A petrol car is worse than battery statistically. Petrol scares the whatsit out of me how quick it goes up. A diesel engine requires compression but diesel fuel doesn't, it'll still go up when the conditions are right (e.g. comes into contact with hot components like a exhaust manifold/turbo/my body). It's auto ignition temperature is actually lower than petrol.

That's correct - with petrol the flashpoint (temperature at which is will spontaneously ignite) is higher than its boiling point, so if you spill petrol on a hot manifold, it will likely boil and evaporate. With diesel it's the other way around, the flashpoint is lower the its boiling point - spill diesel on a hot manifold and it will catch fire without any other source of ignition if it is hot enough.

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by concrete

... P.S. Wyoming are looking at getting rid of electric cars altogether.

Yeah, but not really though:

The bill, introduced into the state legislature on Jan. 13 by Senator Jim Anderson and other Republicans, supports phasing out the sale of new electric vehicles in Wyoming by 2035.


“Oil and gas production has long been one of Wyoming’s proud and valued industries,” says the bill, adding that the industry has created “countless” jobs in the region and contributed to the state’s coffers throughout its history.

The legislation also lists downsides to EVs, such the lack of charging stations in the state and the “massive amounts” of new power generation that would be needed to sustain “the misadventure of electric vehicles.”

The supply of critical minerals needed for EVs is limited and not easily recyclable, so landfills will have to develop new practices to dispose of them, the bill says.

The resolution winds up by stating that phasing out the sale of new electric vehicles will ensure the stability of Wyoming’s oil and gas industry and help preserve the country’s critical minerals for “vital purposes.”

If this all sounds a bit tongue in cheek, it’s because it is — sort of.

Anderson told the Washington Post the main motivation for the bill was California’s move in August to go ahead with a ban on new gas vehicles by 2035.

“I have a problem with somebody saying, ‘Don’t buy any more petroleum vehicles,'” Anderson told the newspaper, adding that he introduced the bill “just to get the message out that we’re not happy with the states that are outlawing our vehicles.”

[SnineT]

Some more interesting info that you won't find in the normy media.



https://www.autoevolution.com/news/e...on_news_static


There's quite a lot of pro's and con's and not as simple as no exhaust pipe.

Here's a little con list.


Power must be generated to charge the car, normally by gas at the powerplant.

The chemistry of Lithium batteries is dirty in it's production.

Car is heavier meaning more tarmac will need replacing faster.

Because the car is heavier it will shed more rubber particulates from the tyres.

Because the car uses regeneration more toxic brake pads will be needed.

There doesn't seem to be a viable way to recycle or dispose of spent cells.

The cost of an EV is off the scale.

The px value will be bad after 5 years as the cells will be degraded, 18650's which is the cell of choice normally last about 3 years in a vaping mod, after that the capacity is much reduced, same cells different head count volume.

That insufferable bastard across the road who always has to have the latest thing will be seen and heard crowing from morning to evening and beyond *it were this big*


There are obviously plus points over an ICE but can you give it the my dicks larger than yours at the lights in a revving contest prior to the drag race along the dual carriageway?

Do EV's burble at the lights setting off a chain reaction of ladies thongs landing on the bonnet before she climbs in and says "quote" take me to bed or lose me forever, yeah sowitiz