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B+E Licence

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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 10:41   #21
Clifford Pope
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I have just found this on the Ivor Williams website:

"My vehicle has a maximum towing weight of 1500kg and my trailer has a maximum gross weight of 2000kg. Can I still tow this trailer?

Yes, as long as the unladen weight of the trailer you are towing combined with the trailer load does not exceed 1500kg, then you can tow this trailer with your vehicle.
There is no legal requirement to downrate the plate on your trailer."


No reference to MAM or gross weights, just vehicle unladen weight plus trailer load.
Are Ivor Williams correct?
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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 12:11   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford Pope View Post
I have just found this on the Ivor Williams website:

"My vehicle has a maximum towing weight of 1500kg and my trailer has a maximum gross weight of 2000kg. Can I still tow this trailer?

Yes, as long as the unladen weight of the trailer you are towing combined with the trailer load does not exceed 1500kg, then you can tow this trailer with your vehicle.
There is no legal requirement to downrate the plate on your trailer."


No reference to MAM or gross weights, just vehicle unladen weight plus trailer load.
Are Ivor Williams correct?
using olde fashioned terms the unladen weight of the trailer is the "tare" the load is the "Net" the total is the "gross".

so if the total of the trailer and load does not exceed 1500Kg then the trailer can be used with that vehicle. I haven't taken much notice of the B+E stuff as i have it "grandfathered in" on my licence.

didn't really take much notice of towing weights and ratios till i bought a Volvo as the last vehicle i had would pull 3500Kg without breaking sweat. Only legal way for me to tow more was to connect trailer brakes to the cars braking system and the UK model I had didn't have the capability to do this ( the US model did )

the V70 i have now is rated for towing 1800Kg
the stuff below may have been linked to but here it is again. Taken DIrectly from Direct.Gov webpages.

Maximum authorised massThe term maximum authorised mass (MAM), used in the context of driving licences, is the maximum weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely while used on the road. This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight.
Unladen weightThe unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is:

•inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road
exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries


Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example:

•a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Whereas

•the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
•Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.


from 2013 new rules apply to those taking Tests after 09 Jan
Cars
The term maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the total weight of the vehicle plus the maximum load it can carry safely.


B Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver, with a trailer up to 750kg Min Age 17*
B Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver, with a trailer over 750kg, where the combination MAM is not exceeding 4250kg Min Age 17**
B+E Combinations of vehicles consisting of a vehicle in category B and a trailer, where the combination does not come within category B and the MAM of the trailer or semi-trailer does not exceed 3500kg Min Age 17*

*Age 16 if you are getting Disability Living Allowance (mobility allowance) at the higher rate.

**New element of category B (UK will not be taking this up. To drive vehicles within this definition, entitlement B+E will be needed).

Last edited by subaqua; Sep 7th, 2012 at 15:04.
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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 13:21   #23
Clifford Pope
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Just when I begin to think I am within sight of understanding this stuff, along comes a new explanation and I realise I know nothing.

I thought it had been drummed into us that the actual load on a trailer was irrelevant, it is the gross weight that counts? eg you can't pull a trailer even if it is empty if it is rated to carry more than the car's stated towing weight?

For that reason people with large trailers who only need to carry lighter loads get the trailer de-rated to keep it legal?

Then along come Ivor Williams saying there is no legal requirement to de-rate, and that the important trailer figure is unladen weight plus actual load.

I'm even more confused now.
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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 15:16   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford Pope View Post
Just when I begin to think I am within sight of understanding this stuff, along comes a new explanation and I realise I know nothing.

I thought it had been drummed into us that the actual load on a trailer was irrelevant, it is the gross weight that counts? eg you can't pull a trailer even if it is empty if it is rated to carry more than the car's stated towing weight?

For that reason people with large trailers who only need to carry lighter loads get the trailer de-rated to keep it legal?

Then along come Ivor Williams saying there is no legal requirement to de-rate, and that the important trailer figure is unladen weight plus actual load.

I'm even more confused now.
working on the assumption that B+E licence is held

unladen weight of trailer plus load is the Gross weight of a trailer.

worked example

the trailer is rated to carry 2500Kg but only weighs 350Kg empty (tare)
your car is rated to pull 1500Kg as the total weight is 350Kg you can pull the trailer
you can load the trailer to 1500kg that is you are allowed a payload of 1500-350 which is 1150Kg.

my trailer is rated for 750Kg Gross it weighs 100Kg , that means I can load 650Kg into it.

with caravans this breaks down further. and this is where it can get very confusing

the caravan maker will give you a Figure called MTPLM maximum technically permissible laden mass.
there will also be a figure the caravan actually weighs( Mass in running order)
the difference between these is the load you can put into the caravan (Payload)

so a caravan with a MTPLM of 1500KG with a caravan unladen weight of 1100Kg will let you put 400Kg in it. again assuming B+E you can only tow this if your car is rated to tow 1500Kg ( in reality the 1500Kg will be 85% of the actual rating)

the direct Gov site is the UK Government site and as much as they screw lots of other things up it is a very very good source of information

. If you can follow these questions and answer ‘yes’ throughout you have achieved a good match between you (the driver), car and trailer. The questions assume the trailer is braked. Very small trailers with an MTPLM of 750kg or less can be unbraked and come under slightly different regulations.


follow the list
1.What is the car’s kerbweight? 1730 in my case
2.What is the trailers MTPLM? assume 1400kg
3.Is the MTPLM less than 85 per cent of the kerbweight? YES
(If no – go to question 4 If yes – go to question 5)
4.Is the MTPLM less than the kerbweight? Those who are used to towing may be confident to tow a heavier combination such as this.
(If so, go to question 5)
5.Is the MTPLM less than the towing limit of the car? YES
(1800 in my case )
safe and legal to tow


Kerb weight: Sometimes called the unladen
weight, this is the weight of the empty vehicle.This
will be quoted in your owner’s manual.There are
different versions, try to avoid “EC Kerb weight”
because it includes a notional weight for the driver. Best measured on a weighbridge.

Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM): This is
your vehicle’s maximum permissible weight, also
known as the gross vehicle weight.This will be
quoted in your owner’s manual.

Maximum Combination
Weight: The total permissible
weight of the fully laden
tow-car and trailer combined. It
particularly affects drivers with
the minimum category B
licence who passed their test
after 31/12/1996.

Noseweight: This is the
weight pushing down on the
towbar of your towing vehicle
and there will be a maximum
permissible noseweight which
will be quoted in your owner’s
manual (there may be different
weights quoted depending on
the type of hitch being used).
The easiest way to test the
noseweight of your trailer is
to use some bathroom scales
and a piece of wood. For
more information visit;
www.highways.gov.uk/towing.

Payload: This is the weight your
vehicle can carry.This may be
quoted in your owner’s manual
but it is calculated by taking the
difference between MAM and
the Kerb weight.


in short for B+E holders if the total weight of what is being towed is lower than the towing limit of the car and meets the 85% Rule , the police will leave you alone and the insurance company will be happy. regardless of what the trailer is rated to carry.


http://www.campingandcaravanningclub...r-and-caravan/
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Old Sep 14th, 2012, 12:58   #25
Clifford Pope
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subaqua View Post

unladen weight of trailer plus load is the Gross weight of a trailer.

No, the Gross Weight is the maximum permitted total weight. It has got nothing to do with the actual load.

The GW is there by design. It is stamped on the chassis. Even when the trailer is empty it still has the same GW, and it is the GW that determines the towing restrictions.
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Old Sep 19th, 2016, 00:59   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifford Pope View Post
No, the Gross Weight is the maximum permitted total weight. It has got nothing to do with the actual load.

The GW is there by design. It is stamped on the chassis. Even when the trailer is empty it still has the same GW, and it is the GW that determines the towing restrictions.
The above is correct.

Also the 85% rule is not law in any way, it's a widely accepted common sense practice for sizing caravans - big, boxy, susceptible to wind loads.

The kerb weight includes all fluids (fuel) and the driver.

Also towing/weight offences do not invalidate your car insurance (the ability of a third party to claim).

Leaving class B calculations aside - it's perfectly acceptable to tow a trailer whose GW exceeds the towing rating of the car provided the actual weight is within limits - probably 40% Plus of HGVs on the road are operated this way.

Another point - VOSA seem to have some strange ideas from time to time and a frustrated traffic cop told me recently that they tend to subtract the GVW of the tow car from the MTW to get the towing weight - which could give a lower figure than the manufacturer. I'm not sure if this is quite true as I don't see how it would stand up in court.
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Old Dec 27th, 2016, 18:19   #27
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Just being picky, VOSA closed in April 2014.
It's the DVSA.
.....and to bring another red herring into the debate, the load rating of your tyres, especially the rear ones, need to be appropriate for the increased weight.
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Old Jul 4th, 2017, 07:04   #28
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Originally Posted by Tannaton View Post
The above is correct.

Also the 85% rule is not law in any way, it's a widely accepted common sense practice for sizing caravans - big, boxy, susceptible to wind loads.

The kerb weight includes all fluids (fuel) and the driver.

Also towing/weight offences do not invalidate your car insurance (the ability of a third party to claim).

Leaving class B calculations aside - it's perfectly acceptable to tow a trailer whose GW exceeds the towing rating of the car provided the actual weight is within limits - probably 40% Plus of HGVs on the road are operated this way.

Another point - VOSA seem to have some strange ideas from time to time and a frustrated traffic cop told me recently that they tend to subtract the GVW of the tow car from the MTW to get the towing weight - which could give a lower figure than the manufacturer. I'm not sure if this is quite true as I don't see how it would stand up in court.
Indeed they do, according to my v5 my xc70 can tow 1500kg, Volvo say it can tow 1800kg.
The 1500kg figure is arrived at by subtracting the kerb weight from 3500kg which is the B+E limit.

As I have B+E1 grandfather rights I can drive up to 7500kg and tow a 1000kg trailer or a combination up to 8500kg so use the Volvo figure.
My landrover is rated to tow 3500kg and weighs 2250kg which makes a train weight of 5750kg, well above the B+E limit of 3500kg.

As an aside B+E1 entitlement is removed at age 70 unless a HGV medical is taken, usual cost is around £150 for this medical. If I still have the landrover at that age I shall be taking the medical.

Paul.
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Old Jul 5th, 2017, 01:48   #29
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Originally Posted by green van man View Post
Indeed they do, according to my v5 my xc70 can tow 1500kg, Volvo say it can tow 1800kg.
The 1500kg figure is arrived at by subtracting the kerb weight from 3500kg which is the B+E limit.

As I have B+E1 grandfather rights I can drive up to 7500kg and tow a 1000kg trailer or a combination up to 8500kg so use the Volvo figure.
My landrover is rated to tow 3500kg and weighs 2250kg which makes a train weight of 5750kg, well above the B+E limit of 3500kg.

As an aside B+E1 entitlement is removed at age 70 unless a HGV medical is taken, usual cost is around £150 for this medical. If I still have the landrover at that age I shall be taking the medical.

Paul.
Do you mean a C1 licence has to have a medical to renew after 70 because a B+E licence can be renewed after 70 without the need for a medical certificate. Is there an E1 category as I cannot find it in the regs.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2017, 22:30   #30
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Just to clarify I have just renewed my licence at 70.

Filled in the forms on line on Sunday night and the new licence arrived today. Well done DVLA or whatever they are called now.

I have lost my C1 entitlement that I have under grandfather rights. ( I gave up my LGV1 some years ago.)

I can confirm that I stlill have B+E and can still drive a car with a MAM of up to 3500kg and up to 8 seats and any trailer which the vehicle can legally tow. Not sure that I want to do more than tow my caravan but it's nice to know that I could.
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