Do you use your air con?

[LOB]

Originally Posted by phil1968

As an airconditioning engineer I can tell you that you only need replace the drier when the system is broken into, for instance to replace the compressor. Replacing it & evacuating / re-gassing on such a regular basis is completely unnecessary

If you ask commercial or industrial AC technicians they usually says that, no you don't have to fill up a ac-system. It's either full or you have a leak. Automotive AC technicians however will explain the difference between a AC system I a car (that's experiencing years of vibrations affecting joints and seals, on and off and rough climate) and a perfectly seald system in a kitchen or an industry. After 20 years the ac system on my 850 had lost 60% refrigerant even though it was considered "gas tight" and ok. My ac was vacuumed and filled four years ago and is still working perfectly.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by LOB

After 20 years the ac system on my 850 had lost 60% refrigerant even though it was considered "gas tight" and ok. My ac was vacuumed and filled four years ago and is still working perfectly.

More like it was only filled with 60% at the factory!

Even on domestic fridges/freezers etc, they will lose gas over a period of time, as will automotive, commercial and industrial systems.

The best way to keep an automotive system as gas tight as it will ever be is to use it, preferably all the time.

[LOB]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

More like it was only filled with 60% at the factory!

Even on domestic fridges/freezers etc, they will lose gas over a period of time, as will automotive, commercial and industrial systems.

The best way to keep an automotive system as gas tight as it will ever be is to use it, preferably all the time.

You mean 40%... I think your mistaking Swedish modern car manufacturing with British Leyland in the 50s. The filling of the AC system at the factory is certainly fully automated. Some suggest that a ac-system loses 5-10% annually. And as you're mentioning, more if you don't use the AC...

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by LOB

You mean 40%... I think your mistaking Swedish modern car manufacturing with British Leyland in the 50s. The filling of the AC system at the factory is certainly fully automated. Some suggest that a ac-system loses 5-10% annually. And as you're mentioning, more if you don't use the AC...

No, i meant 60% - it would have worked for quite a while at an acceptable level and after 20 years or so, dropped to 40% which is where it was when you had it evacuated and refilled.

As for British Leyland in the 50s - they didn't exist!

Who brought modern manufacturing of any nation into it? We're talking about 20+ year old cars here when A/C was more or less in its infancy for the mass market. Granted it had been fitted in American cars since the late 50s on higher end models and since the 60s there on most.

It wasn't fully automated back then and even by the 90s, still wasn't fully automated - even with that, i know for a fact most PSA Group Vehicles were only filled to about 60% from the factory in the late 90s.

I doubt any other manufacturers were that different.

It would be enough to run the A/C for a couple of years until it came to the first scheduled service of the system, system gets evacuated, reciever-dryer changed (and charged for), refilled (to where it should be this time) and charged for - customer is happy as the A/C works better, manufacturer is happy as they've got away with a 60% fill from new and now charged (via the dealer) for evacuating that remaining gas, a new dryer and refilling to the correct amount.

I wouldn't mind betting that if you went round a storage facility of new cars and evacuated the A/C systems, most would be in the region of only 60% full, regardless of manufacture. A friend of mine works for an Authorised Body Repair facility used by many of the main manufacturers and insurance companies and generally works on near-new cars. Quite often the A/C system needs evacuating for the repair to take place. He tells me most of those cars are only about 50-60% full, which kind of bears out my theory.

[LOB]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

No, i meant 60% - it would have worked for quite a while at an acceptable level and after 20 years or so, dropped to 40% which is where it was when you had it evacuated and refilled.

As for British Leyland in the 50s - they didn't exist!

Who brought modern manufacturing of any nation into it? We're talking about 20+ year old cars here when A/C was more or less in its infancy for the mass market. Granted it had been fitted in American cars since the late 50s on higher end models and since the 60s there on most.

It wasn't fully automated back then and even by the 90s, still wasn't fully automated - even with that, i know for a fact most PSA Group Vehicles were only filled to about 60% from the factory in the late 90s.

I doubt any other manufacturers were that different.

It would be enough to run the A/C for a couple of years until it came to the first scheduled service of the system, system gets evacuated, reciever-dryer changed (and charged for), refilled (to where it should be this time) and charged for - customer is happy as the A/C works better, manufacturer is happy as they've got away with a 60% fill from new and now charged (via the dealer) for evacuating that remaining gas, a new dryer and refilling to the correct amount.

I wouldn't mind betting that if you went round a storage facility of new cars and evacuated the A/C systems, most would be in the region of only 60% full, regardless of manufacture. A friend of mine works for an Authorised Body Repair facility used by many of the main manufacturers and insurance companies and generally works on near-new cars. Quite often the A/C system needs evacuating for the repair to take place. He tells me most of those cars are only about 50-60% full, which kind of bears out my theory.

If you're right regarding filling only 60% at the factory I will demand a refund from Norwegian tax authorities since I paid import tax based on 800 g of R134a... Seems unlikely that Volvo should have paid fees based on 800 gram of refrigerant if 480 gram was sufficient (I guess many countries had fees on R134a back in the days when the ozone layer was evaporating). If this semi-fraud was made by every car manufacturer I would have thought I would have heard about it. But you might be right! And sorry for my lack of knowledge of British Leyland ( it was an attempt of a joke not meaning to offend you by any means...)

Skål!

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by LOB

If you're right regarding filling only 60% at the factory I will demand a refund from Norwegian tax authorities since I paid import tax based on 800 g of R134a... Seems unlikely that Volvo should have paid fees based on 800 gram of refrigerant if 480 gram was sufficient (I guess many countries had fees on R134a back in the days when the ozone layer was evaporating). If this semi-fraud was made by every car manufacturer I would have thought I would have heard about it. But you might be right! And sorry for my lack of knowledge of British Leyland ( it was an attempt of a joke not meaning to offend you by any means...)

Skål!

The big problem would be proving the manufacturers knowingly underfilled the systems, i'm sure they all do it and i know several others of the same opinion.
Paying duty/tax/fees on 800g of gas but only filling to 480-500g is still cheaper than filling to 800g and paying duty on 800g. Unless the authorities sample every car (prohibitive purely on cost, never mind the labour etc to do it) then the manufacturers can say almost anything they like to justify a few cars being underfilled and who can prove otherwise?

A bit like "Dieselgate" as we called it here, the VAG diesel scandal where they insisted their cars would all pass emissions but out on the road, the cars were belching out clouds of black diesel smoke. All the manufacturers were playing the same game, it was VAGs bad luck they got caught out.

As for the BL joke, i got it but was in fact having a little joke back because they genuinely didn't exist in the 50s - as several separate companies yes but they only came together in the late 60s to form BL and the quality in the early-mid 70s could be pretty horrific, partly due to strikes, partly due to general apathy among the workers and who knows what else.

There is a school of thought that if it hadn't been for the strikes and variable quality when the Triumph Dolomite was launched, the Triumph Dolomite would have massacred BMWs "Neue Klasse" 1602/2002 models, forcing BMW into bankruptcy.

As we all know, because of the long lead time on the Dolomite thanks to strikes and the quality problems when they did eventually arrive, the BMW sold well eventually, saving the company from folding.

That aside, many manufacturers can and do get away with underfilling A/C systems and many worse things. Ford in the late 60s/early 70s launched the Pinto model in the states knowing that the fuel tank was a potential fire bomb in the event of a rear end accident. Their line of thought was that it would be cheaper to pay the compensation than the cost of redesigning/re-engineering the fuel tank. This outlines the general idea :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_P...and_litigation

While seemingly irrelevant, it serves to illustrate that manufacturers will get away with whatever they can in terms of cost savings.

[phil1968]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Even on domestic fridges/freezers etc, they will lose gas over a period of time, as will automotive, commercial and industrial systems.

No they don't, they're sealed & (unless it develops a leak) the refrigerant charge should be the same throughout it's lifetime, be it a domestic or commercial refrigerator. Same for residential / commercial air conditioning.
I do however agree that the refrigerant will leak out eventually on a car A/C system, through the compressor drive shaft seal, it averages inside 5 years or if you're lucky & the seal is particularly good, 10 years plus. Never heard of car manufacturers undercharging their A/C at the factory though. If it was as much as 60% it would be very deficient if not operating the low pressure cut out.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by phil1968

No they don't, they're sealed & (unless it develops a leak) the refrigerant charge should be the same throughout it's lifetime, be it a domestic or commercial refrigerator. Same for residential / commercial air conditioning.
I do however agree that the refrigerant will leak out eventually on a car A/C system, through the compressor drive shaft seal, it averages inside 5 years or if you're lucky & the seal is particularly good, 10 years plus. Never heard of car manufacturers undercharging their A/C at the factory though. If it was as much as 60% it would be very deficient if not operating the low pressure cut out.

Not undercharged by 60% (that would only be a 40% fill) but only filled to 60% so just about enough to keep the trinary switch in or on a two switch system, the LP switch.
I've regassed countless domestic fridges, freezers, commercial and industrial as well as automotive A/C including refrigerated warehouses, frozen warehouses (-32C), walk in chillers/freezers, commercial A/C for keeping production areas chilled to below 10C, heating office spaces in winter and cooling in summer using split-charge systems, likewise for leasure industry, pubs, restaurants and so on.

It only takes one joint, even on a fully soldered system to have the tiniest leak and even if that gas leaks out one molecule at a time, there will be a time when it needs regassing.

[phil1968]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Not undercharged by 60% (that would only be a 40% fill) but only filled to 60% so just about enough to keep the trinary switch in or on a two switch system, the LP switch.
I've regassed countless domestic fridges, freezers, commercial and industrial as well as automotive A/C including refrigerated warehouses, frozen warehouses (-32C), walk in chillers/freezers, commercial A/C for keeping production areas chilled to below 10C, heating office spaces in winter and cooling in summer using split-charge systems, likewise for leasure industry, pubs, restaurants and so on.

It only takes one joint, even on a fully soldered system to have the tiniest leak and even if that gas leaks out one molecule at a time, there will be a time when it needs regassing.

Ah. Reading your original post you inferred that the refrigerant leaked out over time on domestic refrigerators. Now you're saying they do if they leak What do you do for a living if you don't mind me asking, sounds like you've worked on similar stuff to me.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by phil1968

Ah. Reading your original post you inferred that the refrigerant leaked out over time on domestic refrigerators. Now you're saying they do if they leak What do you do for a living if you don't mind me asking, sounds like you've worked on similar stuff to me.

I was trying to say from the off that all refrigerant kit can leak if there's one joint that isn't perfect and very often it can't be detected on a sniffer because it's so small and as you rightly point out, shaft seals on automotive compressors but also the "O" rings can dry out on the pipes where they connect to the compressor, condensor or wherever they're used.

It's not so much what i do, it's what i did, left school, got an apprenticeship in Electrical & Electronic Engineering, the first year of which was "Off the job" training in an engineering school and included what they called "broad-based training" so i know how to do the mechanical side as well, found there wouldn't be a job at the end of my apprenticeship, went into Automotive Electrics, gained more bits of paper for those and also A/C work, topped that up with another basic refrigeration certificate, started my own business then the major slump in autoelectrics in 1996 hit me. All i can say about that is i managed to keep going longer than Lucas did but not by much!
From there i went back into maintenance engineering, variety of roles, some field based, others in factories including a poultry processing factory, live chickens in, ready to cook or eat chicken out in frozen or refrigerated forms, they went bust so went to a company that installed A/C in various locations, a few months in and they lost a contract so lost some staff, went onto a commercial and marine electrical and mechanical repairs firm, they were heading for the scuppers after about 3 years so i jumped ship so to speak, went to work for a food related packaging company then through no fault of my own, lost my accommodation and couldn't find anywhere else so ended up moving, finding another job on diesel generators - was there just over a month and they asked me to help out at a different branch and while working from there met my (now ex) wife. I was then offered my choice of duties and where i wanted to work. I had nothing to move home for so stayed.
Long story short, we moved up here for various reasons, things went pear-shaped after i was head-hunted by a competitor of who i had been working for so needed another job - back to the plastics industry for food packaging until laid off from there so i went bus driving.

After a long, colourful career in engineering working with heavy machinery, high voltages, all kinds of dangerous substances, i crippled myself 6 months into the bus driving in a work related accident. Since then my health has gone seriously downhill so i'm sadly no longer capable of work.

Bet you wish you hadn't asked now! There's probably a few bits i've missed, omitted or otherwise left out, those are the main important bits though.