Paul & Stephanie Rowlands 64 P1800 (Project Saint Marie)

[asneddon]

I am pretty much straddling the line with respect to this. My current toy car is a Ruddspeed Jensen built P1800, and I would never consider going the route you have here with that. I would look at buying a late 1800S or (providing you could get rid of the horrible ‘wooden’ dash) a 1800E to bring up to modern standards. I also wouldn’t be looking at starting with a show quality one, but one that was in need of work anyway.

I have recently been thinking of going the MkII Jag route from here: http://www.beacham-jaguar.co.nz so this thread is coming at a good time for me, as I love my P1800. I do drive it almost every day, and I agree with 940 that they are a very capable car. I just want a little bit more. I wouldn’t do any body mods at all except fit cow-horns and hock-stick chrome, as the thing I love most about the 1800 is the looks. I don’t see any benefit in changing that at all. I live in a nice harbour side village (in UK speak), which is 25 minutes down a good quality winding road with a speed limit that’s hard to reach. It’s a lovely drive, but the B18 just doesn’t have the get up and go to make it an exciting drive. My wife’s 7-seater makes more of a go at it (although, that does have a modified VR6 in it).

Anyway, I’ve rambled off topic. I was trying to sa
y that I agree with 940 when it’s a rare or special car. If it’s just one of several tens of thousand off the production line, then I think it’s a good thing to keep it on the road by whatever means necessary.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Oh, I would be the first to agree about not altering historical cars or rare models.. I wouldnt have done the Camaro build pictured ealier, if it was a rare DZ 302 Z28.. But, that isnt really what he was stating at all, or that isnt what I read.

As far as the common, non historical or sought after models, I really dont see what the problem is with bringing them up to modern efficiencies.. It actually brings more awareness to the fact the P1800 and Amazon exist.. My Project Changling build yeilds numerous emails a week from people that didnt know the P1800 existed, and now are looking for one.. If we can get the awareness and appreciation up on these models, then there will be more support for the parts necessary to keep even the original car on the road.

I think it is a silly debate when it comes to the fact about possible improvement on the P1800/Amazons performance and driving habits. Fact is, there can be improvement, but it is subjective to the type of car you are wanting.. It just seems that the purist tend to be less respectful to the other styles.. I dont really see to many threads where people have to chime on on original build, and say that is just horrible.. How dare you not fix the deficiencies? There just seems to be an intentional disrespectful tone and lack tolerance to anothers likes, while they are trying to communicate their counter views..

All these items are direct bolt on, and the customer can save all their original parts that can be installed again at anytime.. Swedish Skunk Werks goes out of their way to offer products that involve NO BODY ALTERATIONS, you unbolt the original parts, and bolt our parts in.. I dont think that is blastphomy at all, it is far far better that the Race Car alterations done to these cars.

[lukeball]

I think the main point Peter (940 Turbo) is trying to make is that the Amazon in its normal configuration has won plenty of races without these new extra components. John Parker has plenty of experience and he holds the Historic A track record at Watkins Glen. That was 20 years ago and no one has beat it yet! The front suspension doesn't need to be updated to make this car better. Some mods are allowed but this doesn't mean completely changing the car.

As with old American cars, they were only good for racing the 1/4 mile. These kinds of upgrades would be needed for American cars, but no really for Volvos. The cars in the videos look cool, but they don't handle nearly are well as AC "Shelby" Cobras and Sunbeam Tigers. Those cars were made for racing and actually I could buy one for about the same price as your build.

In the future though, I probably still buy your AC unit and the rear axle. The biggest thing I see with the car, is the price. When the car is finished, the only true part that is still Volvo, is the body. Just wondering how much lighter is the Amazon going to be when it is finished?

The thing I like about the Amazon is simplicity. There is more room in the engine bay and less electronics to mess with. Will your new Amazon have OBDII support? Also, how easy is it to tune the engine?

If performance is your goal and you want something special, the Zcars Mini Cooper Hayabusa kit is a great deal. For $25K american, you could build a turbo hayabusa car with over 400HP and 0-60 acceleration in under 3 sec.

This car is a beast and it will be my next build:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnvxP...ayer_embedded#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZb9h...el_video_title He goes on to win.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Originally Posted by lukeball

I think the main point Peter (940 Turbo) is trying to make is that the Amazon in its normal configuration has won plenty of races without these new extra components. John Parker has plenty of experience and he holds the Historic A track record at Watkins Glen. That was 20 years ago and no one has beat it yet! The front suspension doesn't need to be updated to make this car better. Some mods are allowed but this doesn't mean completely changing the car.

As with old American cars, they were only good for racing the 1/4 mile. These kinds of upgrades would be needed for American cars, but no really for Volvos. The cars in the videos look cool, but they don't handle nearly are well as AC "Shelby" Cobras and Sunbeam Tigers. Those cars were made for racing and actually I could buy one for about the same price as your build.

In the future though, I probably still buy your AC unit and the rear axle. The biggest thing I see with the car, is the price. When the car is finished, the only true part that is still Volvo, is the body. Just wondering how much lighter is the Amazon going to be when it is finished?

The thing I like about the Amazon is simplicity. There is more room in the engine bay and less electronics to mess with. Will your new Amazon have OBDII support? Also, how easy is it to tune the engine?

If performance is your goal and you want something special, the Zcars Mini Cooper Hayabusa kit is a great deal. For $25K american, you could build a turbo hayabusa car with over 400HP and 0-60 acceleration in under 3 sec.

This car is a beast and it will be my next build:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnvxP...ayer_embedded#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZb9h...el_video_title He goes on to win.

A few target points here.. I do understand the Volvo has race history and wins, but classed against what? In its time and classed with similarily configured cars, I know it did well, but wasnt there more capable classes out there also? But times have changed, and there are other groups to compete in, so why not take it to the next level. As far as track records go, that is for the class it was raced in, not the track record for all classifications.. And old records still stand, because the vehicles that can qualify to beat those records have to be configured the same with strict rules on alterations. Just like weight classes in boxing, racing classes keep the playing feilds level so no runs away with anything.. Our cars would not be allowed in any nostalgic race that I am aware of, because it would be an unfair race. I can promise you this, none of them in that record holding group could keep up with ours on the track.

2nd Point.. Yes, there are alot of fun modded cars to drive, like the Hyabusa Mini. But with those type builds, we are not talking daily drivers with all the modern conveniences and driver friendly characteristics. Cars that can be driven cross country, with dependability, comfort, and effiency..

3rd point.. People are afraid of modern technology, but the OBDII system is highly supported and very easy to tune.. Infact, there is plenty of programming, knowledge, and support available to get exactly what you want the first time.. It is way easier that messing with Dual Carbs, Timing Advance Curves, and finicky air/fuel mixture setting that seem to change all the time. Set it once with an OBDII and it is there.. You can hit the key, it starts the first with no warm ups, chokes, tempermental carb issues, etc...

Now I am not bashing the original car, in its day it has done quite well.. It has a very devoted following, and a great group of people that have been supporting them over the years. Everyone has their driving needs and preference, and I am not saying I dont enjoy a nice original classic car, because I do.. I have had original MGA's, Triumph TR250's and TR6's, Early Porsche's, Ferrari Testarossa, etc, and there is a time when they are fun to drive, and that was exactly what I was looking for at the time.. I have also had new cars, that I had done the Aftermarket add on's and performance mods, so there is always room for improvement in the New or Old, just depends on Owner preference..

[940_Turbo]

Originally Posted by Iamtheonlyreal1

All I can do is laugh about that statement.. I think the intelligence level was very well demonstrated, and shows total lack of respect to any other view out there...

How does disagreeing with you demonstrate a lack of intelligence? All we have right now of any substance is your incessant parasitic posting. The only thing you've demonstrated any actual ability at is beating your own drum.

Other traders are required to ask permission from the moderators of the site before peddling their wares, something you appear to have decided doesn't apply to you. Right now all we have is a load of boasts, some completely untried products and some cars that have been taken apart but not put together again.

You simply can't compare something like a Camaro with an 1800 or 120. The Volvo is a proper monocoque, the Camaro is not.

I’m not against modification per se; I’ve built enough rally cars not to want to beat that particular drum. However I think your approach is crude and insensitive. Why impose a whole load of modern components on an old car? Look at cars that were modified in the past. Engines that were then new and interesting are now old and obsolete. By and large those cars are just not interesting to modern eyes. A few years from now an LS1 will be just another old and obsolete engine and these cars will be an anachronism. No one now wants a Stag with a Rover V8, an NSU RO 80 with a Ford V4 engine, or MG TC with a Volvo B18.

These cars won’t be as good as an MX5, Lotus Elise, Porsche 944, Mercedes E55, Volvo T5R etc etc etc. If someone wants an 1800 style car with rack and pinion it makes far more financial sense to go out and buy a Porsche 944 than to hack and 1800 around. As I said before it is the owner’s car. But the idea that by simply bolting a load of modern stuff to an old car you’ll somehow per definition create something vastly better should be challenged. History tends to suggest these efforts won’t have enduring appeal. Experience tells us that the original engineers were highly competent and that when the cars are in good condition they work exceptionally well.

It’ll be far more cost effective to rebuild what there is, and I’d suggest the end result will have more enduring appeal, more historic significance and greater commercial value

[alastair]

Originally Posted by 940_Turbo

How does disagreeing with you demonstrate a lack of intelligence? All we have right now of any substance is your incessant parasitic posting. The only thing you've demonstrated any actual ability at is beating your own drum.

+1

The 1800list has already had to endure a stream of product promotion from the same source, and any criticism of the same is met with nonsense about anal 'purists' and a 'silent majority' emailing through their support for his venture.

I've no problem with people transplanting whatever they like onto their old cars, nor with anyone fabricating new bits for old cars, but pitching the same in the manner that's happened here is just irritating. The corvette/mustang/grab-bag with a 1800 body might be a great thing altogether, but it'll be undoubtedly inferior to what you can buy for the same money - if prepared to forego the veneer of 60's styling. The pretence that a well-sorted, broadly original 1800 or Amazon can't really cut the mustard in contemporary driving lies at the heart of the pitch here - and that's patently guff. So spare me the 'purist' evasion when people (real people - not a 'silent majority') voice concern at a wall of product placement, or comically large wheels, or the suggestion that existing Volvo specialist suppliers aren't really up to the job, or that some sort of product/stress testing for a suite of new components in the context of these cars might be a good idea, or indeed that those who disagree with your approach are 'unintelligent'. Respect runs both ways.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Originally Posted by 940_Turbo

I know exactly what it means. That Camaro you posted looks horrible, ugly wheels, ugly interior and a general lack of taste.

However it isn't as you put it "a programmed response". It is a perfectly well reasoned point of view. As I said earlier these cars are a form of vandalism. People get all het up about cars getting destroyed in banger racing, but these monstrosities are just as irretrievably ruined as a car that get a final fling on the banger track.

I guess rednecks have to drive something too, but let's drop the pretence that this has even a nodding acquaintance with competent restoration.

I think the tone pretty well sums up the intelligence, tone, and intent of 940's post. It is this statement I meant was laughable, and lacked any class.. It is this tone and disrespect that, the Pro-Touring or Resto-Mod guys dont dish out on Original Restoration Post.. It wasnt necessary, and was a thought out attempt, which means it was an attack that took effort..

I dont discount anyone's opinion, but you dont have to read between the lines to see dis-respect in these statements.. What you are not considering is, you are completely dis-respecting people that have the alternative build view, and they are fellow members on here.. If your intent is to insult me, why not make a personal post, instead of disrespecting other members on here that have some of the same ideas.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

[QUOTE=alastair;971676]+1

The 1800list has already had to endure a stream of product promotion from the same source, and any criticism of the same is met with nonsense about anal 'purists' and a 'silent majority' emailing through their support for his venture.



Again, No need to read the post if it isnt something you are interested in. Why do you think all these products are coming out? Could it be because they are requested by the (Silent Majority) or interested members? Business is business in the end, and if the interest and dialogue from Volvo owners and members of these groups werent there, none of it would happen.



I've no problem with people transplanting whatever they like onto their old cars, nor with anyone fabricating new bits for old cars, but pitching the same in the manner that's happened here is just irritating. The corvette/mustang/grab-bag with a 1800 body might be a great thing altogether, but it'll be undoubtedly inferior to what you can buy for the same money - if prepared to forego the veneer of 60's styling. The pretence that a well-sorted, broadly original 1800 or Amazon can't really cut the mustard in contemporary driving lies at the heart of the pitch here - and that's patently guff. So spare me the 'purist' evasion when people (real people - not a 'silent majority') voice concern at a wall of product placement, or comically large wheels, or the suggestion that existing Volvo specialist suppliers aren't really up to the job, or that some sort of product/stress testing for a suite of new components in the context of these cars might be a good idea, or indeed that those who disagree with your approach are 'unintelligent'. Respect runs both ways



Not saying that anyone lacks intelligence because they disagree with me or others.. Just saying the lack of intelligence kicks in, when it is in the form of the statements above by 940.

Not saying the original Volvo isnt capable, and you can get a bit more out of the original configuration. Just saying that there is more out there after that, so I am sorry if that statment is offensive.. I dont know what I said that is an insult, just the facts that there is always room for improvement. And if you are comparing apples to apples, and apple will always win when being compared.. I am taking the Volvo out of the Apple category, where it can compete somewhere else on a higher level.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Originally Posted by 940_Turbo

How does disagreeing with you demonstrate a lack of intelligence? All we have right now of any substance is your incessant parasitic posting. The only thing you've demonstrated any actual ability at is beating your own drum.

You simply can't compare something like a Camaro with an 1800 or 120. The Volvo is a proper monocoque, the Camaro is not.

I am not comparing the P1800/Amazon with a Camaro, but if you want to split hairs, the Camaro is comparible to the monocoque construction. It is a unibody car with a bolt in front structure that holds the suspension. I am comparing the classic cars with modern technology, to the modified P1800/Amazon's with the current performance products on the market now.. I am not attacking the original builds, and wouldnt even consider offering a comparison to that style, because they are not in the same grouping and capability.

I’m not against modification per se; I’ve built enough rally cars not to want to beat that particular drum. However I think your approach is crude and insensitive. Why impose a whole load of modern components on an old car? Look at cars that were modified in the past. Engines that were then new and interesting are now old and obsolete. By and large those cars are just not interesting to modern eyes. A few years from now an LS1 will be just another old and obsolete engine and these cars will be an anachronism. No one now wants a Stag with a Rover V8, an NSU RO 80 with a Ford V4 engine, or MG TC with a Volvo B18.

Do you realize how long the LS engine has been used for transplants? Do you realize how long the Basic General Motors 350 has been used in transplants, and the fact they would generally help the value and capability of the build? And are you really comparing a Stag, or a MG TC with a B18 to this builds capabilities? Seems a bit of a reach there..

These cars won’t be as good as an MX5, Lotus Elise, Porsche 944, Mercedes E55, Volvo T5R etc etc etc. If someone wants an 1800 style car with rack and pinion it makes far more financial sense to go out and buy a Porsche 944 than to hack and 1800 around. As I said before it is the owner’s car. But the idea that by simply bolting a load of modern stuff to an old car you’ll somehow per definition create something vastly better should be challenged. History tends to suggest these efforts won’t have enduring appeal. Experience tells us that the original engineers were highly competent and that when the cars are in good condition they work exceptionally well.

Refer to the answer statement just above, that seems to fit here also.

It’ll be far more cost effective to rebuild what there is, and I’d suggest the end result will have more enduring appeal, more historic significance and greater commercial value

Lets see... It cost way more to build these cars, than can be gotten out for them commercially.. I must say, that statement is really stretching it, dont you think? Wouldn everyone agree the P1800 is way under valued? And the reasons involve a lackluster performance of these cars from their inception.. The styling was there, but in the day, it didnt do what is was trying to show.. That is why other models of cars in the P1800 era, are worth way more money and are highly sought after.. I am not saying this to be insulting, it is the truth.. Another one of my favorite cars had suffered the same fate, and it is the Datsun Fairlady Roadster. It has the low production numbers, styling, dependability, but it didnt really Wow anyone back in the day, so it suffers the lackluster value, over priced parts, and total lack of recognition... Does this sound familar? The P1800 is very lucky and has something going for it, it has had a dedicated group of people who have stood by them and kept them on the road without question.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Now here is the real point I was trying to make, when it came to the lack of class.. This is a build thread of Paul Rowlands build for his wife, and is a documentation of what is going on. Mr. Rowlands thought enough of this type build, has sought out this type build, had came and visited our facility and process before he decided to commit.

I have had several people drive from cross country to take a look at our products, and we have a waiting list for P1800's and Amazon's. I have an even larger waiting list for parts as they come available, and these people I have met personally or have had lengthy conversations via phone, email, etc, so perhaps their decisions are a bit more informed than you give credit...

If you want to bash products, or start a run away discussion, why not leave to the other post I have about said products? Why insult a fellow Volvo Owner for his decision, and taint his build record, by insensitive statements? I am not saying questions or constructive critism isnt welcome, but I think the Tone and Insult of a couple of statements posted are very loud and clear.