850: 1995 850 GLT 20 valve long crank issue

[ollen001]

(A call for help from Minneapolis....)

1995 Volvo 850 GLT, 20 valve, non turbo, naturally aspirated, 5 speed manual (M56) with 126K miles on the clock. I'm the third owner.

I have a long crank problem which has developed over the last two years. I am the third owner and done most of the work myself. The only thing that I couldn’t do was replace the manual transmission when it suddenly went out and that was done by an independent shop. (and this might be my problem…)

(Here's a post that seems to describe my exact problem)

https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=8440

The car started with a delayed crank, perhaps five to ten seconds and it was intermittent. This is my winter car, so I cannot exactly remember when it started but it has gotten worse over the years so that it now takes 90 seconds or more to start, if the battery holds out that long. And I have replaced batteries. A reliable way to get it started is to put the charger on in “start” mode and that starts it every time eventually. But you really have to ride the starter. Perhaps 90 seconds to two minutes. Once started it's fine, but you cannot turn it off for more than ten minutes without having to go through this yet again. ( *sigh* )

I have methodically gone through all the usual suspects and have *multiple* known good duplicates of all of these:

Fuel pump
Fuel pump relay (I have about ten of these and I am also an expert on jumping the relay…)
Fuel filter (new Bosch)
Fuel pressure regulator
Spark plugs (OEM Volvo 3 prong less than 3 months old)
Spark plug wires (Bougicord – two years old)
Cap and rotor (Bosch OEM equivalent)
Ignition coil (multiple used units and they all test out good)
Coolant temperature sensor (three known good spares)
Camshaft position sensor (four known good spares)
Crankshaft position sensor (four known good spares)

In addition, this car has had:
Timing belt, all tensioners, water pump (all OEM, Aisin or OEM equivalent)
Voltage regulator (Bosch)

Grounds were cleaned as I came across them and reattached. The car charges the battery as specified and the starter turns with vigor.

I methodically went through all the diagnostics as best I could. I finally gave up and decided to take it to an independent Volvo only shop with a known reputation.

They spent several hours diagnosing and found: no power to the injectors when cranking.

Fuel pressure is good, but no spark. They found they can easily push start the car and it reliably starts immediately. They went through every sensor, all grounds, the ignition switch, checked all of my components. Put the sensors on a scope when running.

It all looks good, except:

When engaging the starter, the fuel injectors won’t fire, but they get a small burst of activity just as you are turning the ignition off.

They are thinking it is electromagnetic interference from a faulty starter. The starter however does not draw amps above what is specified. And it turns over correctly and quickly.

A word about this starter: it is the original starter since I know the first two owners and they claim they never replaced it. I park the car over summers in a garage and only use it in winter. Several years ago the solenoid stuck and all I got was click-click-click when turning the key. I took out the starter (what a fun job) and used compressed air to blow out a lot of dust, lubricated it, used a wired brush to take off all the grease, wiped it down and bench tested it. I got the solenoid to push out the gear when energized from a 12 volt battery on the bench. I recall really bench testing this thing to make sure that the gear came out and spun when energized. It worked perfectly and I put it back in and didn’t think anything about it. It ran.

Sometime later, the manual transmission went out. I couldn’t do it myself so I had an independent install a used low mileage M56. I remember picking it up that it still had the long crank.

I have been told by the current shop that it is either the starter causing electromagnetic interference to the crank/camshaft sensors (not sure which one…), or, as reading in this and other Volvo forums, that when the transmission was installed the mating surfaces of the transmission and the engine have to be extremely clean. If they aren’t, you can also get electromagnetic noise to the crankshaft or camshaft sensor (don’t know which it would be) and that the car would have a long crank since the electromagnetic noise interferes with the timing signals.

If it’s the starter, this is relatively easy and I’m guessing that’s the end of it.

If it’s the transmission, I have read that you can separate the transmission from the engine and use emory or “rifle cleaners” and brake cleaner to clean the mating surfaces between the engine and transmission.

Question: If it is the mating surface between the engine and the transmission, can it be done while the transmission is in the car? Or do they have to pull the transmission? It seems from the various write-ups that it can be done in the car by separating the engine and transmission an inch and cleaning. Has anyone else done this before?

I’ve replaced a lot of stuff on this car and it runs perfectly and want to keep it. But pulling the transmission again makes me wonder. I almost cannot believe that the mating surface can be an issue, but it is.

Somebody, please throw me a bone. Comments, ideas, experiences are all welcome. The car runs great once started. Don't want to give up an otherwise excellent runner.

[Mkengineering]

You mentioned that the cars injectors weren't getting any power?

Just a thought have you checked the injectors relay at all?

[Luxobarge]

Hmmm, an interesting one.

Things that come to mind are the electrical part of the ignition switch (a common failure point on these) - it might not be providing ignition power when in the cranking position? Faults on this can cause all sorts of weird electrical issues, it's easy enough to change.

Another thought is the immobiliser - common fault is bad contacts on the antenna ring which goes around the ignition barrel, cleaning these really thoroughly often fixes it. Normal symptom is that it'll fire briefly then just crank, so if yours doesn't fire at all then maybe not this.

Hope this helps? Just a couple of thoughts, let us know how you get on.

[ollen001]

Hello from Cold Minnesota

I so appreciate the replies that I'm receiving.

I forgot to mention that I also have fuel injector relay spares, and the shop does as well. They eliminated this as an issue. This was a "gift" Volvo from a co-worker and when I got it I determined that I would have spare relays for every major function of this car, or anything that was listed as a service item. So the fuel injector relay spare is part of a large kit of spares for this car. My layperson (I'm a good diagnostician and can do anything with car repairs but I am not a mechanic by any means) abilities had me methodically swapping out, one at a time:

crank position sensor
camshaft position sensor
coolant temperature sensor
fuel injection relay
fuel pump relay
fuel pump

and anything listed in my original post.

And, this is the reason why I had to take it, after two years, to a specialist Volvo only shop. I'm a bit stubborn but this situation is not solvable by me alone!

The shop has already looked and tested the ignition switch. The car does not fire up initially and then stall. It cranks continuously, and doesn't fire. Eventually, 90 seconds to upwards of two minutes, it suddenly catches and fires. The plugs don't foul, they don't get saturated with fuel because the injectors are not getting the signal to inject. It's dry until it finally fires.

The shop also has known good spares of the two computers (spark and injection ecu I am guessing) and they told me they tried a pair from a customers car (they magically had one being serviced) and that also didn't work. However, my computers (ecu) work in the customers car and it starts immediately.

The immobilizer issue was also looked into and it appears to not be a problem. They have ruled it out, as well as the ignition switch. The switch does what it's supposed to do, or so they say.

What the shop confidently predicted they could diagnose in an hour has turned into a five hour affair.

So, we are down to:

1) the starter causing electromagnetic interference and interfering with camshaft or crankshaft position sensors

2) the transmission/engine mating surfaces not having been clean enough causing electromagnetic interference with the camshaft or crankshaft position sensors. This issue is documented on several Volvo boards. I have a fear that this is actually the issue. The transmission was changed.

But who knows?

Here's one of several posts I've found which illustrate the issue. Note Jimmy57 response in this post. Apparently he is known as "the Volvo Whisperer"

https://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/fo...ic.php?t=53441

Similar to the post from your forum in my initial post.

Please not his solution: "3. if the test above doesn't work then the trans and engine need to be separated 1/2 inch and the surfaces scrubbed with rifle cleaner brushes and brake cleaner spray."

Seems like he's done this before.

Hope this gets you all thinking some more about my issue. Let's hope this gets solved next week!

I've replaced and serviced everything on the car and it is an excellent runner. All the suspension, control arms, struts, shocks, bearings, brakes and what not have been done by me. With just 126K miles on the car, it's just broken in.

I'm determined to get this working and hopefully my experience can help anyone who encounters this issue in the future.

Mark

[Baffler]

Originally Posted by ollen001

1) the starter causing electromagnetic interference and interfering with camshaft or crankshaft position sensors

Our forum member Clan, with his life long experience with Volvo, reported of a similar problem to which you describe. He found that the routing of the starter cable over/around the gearbox was indeed interfering with the signal from the Crank Position Sensor. Not wishing to build up your hopes but a simple re-routing of the cable was all that was needed.

If I'm not mistaken Volvo's approach was to fit a CPS shield on models that came in with this problem.

[PNuT]

Is this a factory manual?

I would hazard a guess that you have a wiring fault that is drawing the power from the injectors whilst cranking!

IIRC nearly every sensor is powered by one electrical circuit, probably worth checking power drop to other sensors whilst cranking...

have the garage supplied a separate 12v feed to the solenoid to isolate the cranking circuit?

[Volvofreak2]

Had the same problem with my 850 20V. Read your thread yesterday and, after work, went to my garage, to check, if it starts, when connecting a charger, as you described. When connecting the charger, I found out, that the nut, that holds the two additional wires to the positive batterypole, has come loose. Tightened it again and gave it a try. What should I say, engine started at once without problem! Same today! I would say, job done! This might not solve your problem, but shows to me, how simple failures can cause interferences and should be checked first.
And thank you very much, for leading me in the right direktion, I suspected a fuelproblem!

[taiwan740]

Try putting jumper cables on it but without the other end connected to anything (certainly NOT touching) - if it fires up straight away then your battery connections are crap.