240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[Othen]

I’m planning to change as much of the Royal Barge’s ATF as I can get out in the next week or so; the gearbox is working fine, but I don’t know when it was last done. The good book says to drain the pan and top up, which is fine.

Obviously I won’t be able to get all the ATF out - I think the total capacity is about 6.5 litres. My question is, how much should I expect to be able to drain (just so I know how much ATF to buy)? From experience I’m guessing the answer will be about half the total.

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Othen

It may be that I’m just used to modern aluminium engines that warm up quickly, but it does seem to me that the Royal Barge warms up a bit slowly. I drive in to town to get some breakfast at the Wetherspoons this morn and took a longer route, so about 6 miles. The temperature gauge had only just stirred (about a quarter of its range). Is this normal or could the thermostat not be closing fully? Perhaps my expectations are just more than can be satisfied by a large lump of cast iron? I think I’ve just noticed this recently since reducing the tickover speed from 1500 to 900RPM, obviously I need a bit more of the fast idle now.

I’ll take a longer route home, along the Geddington bypass (about 10 miles I should think) and see if that gets it up to temperature.

I’m planning to change the coolant in the next few weeks (because I don’t know when that was last done) and have a new thermostat in the spares box the PO gave me, I suppose it might make sense to change both at the same time and see if that makes any difference.

Alan

I can answer this one myself: it takes 7 miles of driving (with the ambient temperature at perhaps 8C) for the Royal Barge to warm up fully - I just tried it. The thermostat is clearly working perfectly as the temperature gauge slightly overshoots its middle position before dropping as the valve opens completely (at 92C according to the Book of Haynes).

When I think about it: there is perhaps 70kg of cast iron block and aluminium head plus a radiator and two gallons of water to warm from 8c to 92c, so 7 miles, or about 12 minutes, is entirely reasonable. My expectations were just wrong previously.

Everything is working just fine, so ignore my post above. I'll still change the coolant soon, but I'll leave the thermostat alone (if it ain't broke don't fix it). I wonder why the PO had a new one in the spares box?

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Othen

The tickover sounds just a little bit lumpy at 900RPM, perhaps I’ve just become used to fuel injected engines controlled by computers. I’ll change the air filter (only £7 for a Bosch one for this car) and change the diaphragm next week, that should make everything nice and smooth.

Alan

I can answer this for myself as well: I just had not warmed the Royal Barge up properly. Once I'd got it up to proper running temperature on the way back from the Wetherspoons the tickover had settled down nicely - in fact it was a little too fast again at 1100RPM, so I adjusted it with my penknife in the Aldi car park on the way home (as one should).

This non-issue was just down to me forgetting how a simple carburettor engine should run, and expecting it to run as smoothly when cold as would a modern injected and controlled by a computer motor.

I'll still change the air filter and diaphragm next week because I don't know when they were last done - and top up the dash-pot with ATF as Dave kindly advised.

Best wishes,

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Othen

I’m planning to change as much of the Royal Barge’s ATF as I can get out in the next week or so; the gearbox is working fine, but I don’t know when it was last done. The good book says to drain the pan and top up, which is fine.

Obviously I won’t be able to get all the ATF out - I think the total capacity is about 6.5 litres. My question is, how much should I expect to be able to drain (just so I know how much ATF to buy)? From experience I’m guessing the answer will be about half the total.

Alan

I thought about this on the way back from breakfast and have ordered a metric gallon of ATF, this should be plenty as the box takes between 6.4 and 6.9litres from empty depending on whether it turns out to be a BW35 or BW55.

I wonder whether there is a filter in the pan (this time I'll have a look in the Book of Haynes rather than just ask a random question)?

Alan

[Clifford Pope]

Originally Posted by Othen

forgetting how a simple carburettor engine should run, and expecting it to run as smoothly when cold as would a modern injected and controlled by a computer motor.

I've always found you need to get to know how your particular car runs when cold, and discover how much choke it needs to start, how much to maintain a nice idle once it's started, and how much you can push the choke in after your have got moving.
I've generally found that carburettor engines on all the cars I've had need full choke to fire, then 1/2 or even 1/4 immediately, and then choke in once you get up to speed. But if you need to get up a hill in the first few minutes, or pull up at a junction, a quick pull on the choke gives a shot of fuel and then the engine keeps running smoothly without hesitating.

But cars vary. Some need no choke at all after firing up, some really only need a faster idle rather than actual choke (my landrover has a hand throttle - I just set it on the 2nd notch for the first couple of miles so it doesn't stall if I have to stop).

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Clifford Pope

I've always found you need to get to know how your particular car runs when cold, and discover how much choke it needs to start, how much to maintain a nice idle once it's started, and how much you can push the choke in after your have got moving.
I've generally found that carburettor engines on all the cars I've had need full choke to fire, then 1/2 or even 1/4 immediately, and then choke in once you get up to speed. But if you need to get up a hill in the first few minutes, or pull up at a junction, a quick pull on the choke gives a shot of fuel and then the engine keeps running smoothly without hesitating.

But cars vary. Some need no choke at all after firing up, some really only need a faster idle rather than actual choke (my landrover has a hand throttle - I just set it on the 2nd notch for the first couple of miles so it doesn't stall if I have to stop).

Yes, you are right - I'd just forgotten how cars used to run with mechanical analogue controls. I should't have done really, three of my bikes still have carburettor systems and chokes, and all three need different treatment until they are warmed (the Suzuki 2 stroke can run without choke straight away, Triumph scrambler needs just a short while, the CCM longer).

I'd been spoiled by modern cars with injection systems and computers, but I like the Royal Barge's simple arrangements and just need to get used to it a bit.

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

It may be that I’m just used to modern aluminium engines that warm up quickly, but it does seem to me that the Royal Barge warms up a bit slowly. I drive in to town to get some breakfast at the Wetherspoons this morn and took a longer route, so about 6 miles. The temperature gauge had only just stirred.

After 6 miles Alan it should be up to halfway on the temperature gauge. In fact, after about a mile it should be there, or very nearly! After the first 1/4-1/2 mile, you should have warmth from the heater and the gauge should be at least up to the first mark on the gauge.

First thing to check is the viscous coupling on the fan (assuming it has that and isn't a solid coupling). When cold, the fan should turn easily. Get the engine nice and hot, switch off and try again, it should be stiffer now.
If that's ok, the finger of blame is pointed well and truly at the thermostat. I'd strongly suggest giving the system a very good flush and a new thermostat.

I've typed this out many times but can't recall a recent thread where i've done it so i'll just do a list of instructions.

Before you start, douse the Jubilee clips involved and the 'stat housing nuts/bolts with releasing/penetrating oil. Let soak for a few days and repeat. Leave a few days more and give a final dousing.
Set the heater controls to "HOT"

Remove the bottom hose from the rad to drain the old coolant - catch it in something for safe disposal.

Refit the bottom hose and refill with plain water. Add a heavy-duty cooling system flush such as Comma X-Stream Flush or similar.

Take it for a drive. Instructions on the flush usually say "Run the engine for 15-20 minutes, drain and reverse flush" Drive about that amount of time out and then return.

Let the engine cool. Remove the 'stat housing and the thermostat. If memory serves correctly, the 'stat on the B21 has the seal around the actual 'stat, basically a grooved "O" ring. Clean the areas in the housing and on the head where the seal sits.
Refit the housing (no 'stat).

Remove the top hose from the rad. Insert your garden hose into the top hose and turn the hose on. Water should start flowing from the rad stub - go and have a coffee!

Come back after your coffee (remember it was clean water in there so not a problem about drains etc) and check to make sure the water is running clear. Move the hose into the expansion tank (can't remember if yours has one but if it does, do this step) and observe the water coming out of the top hose stub. Once clear, turn the hose off and remove the bottom hose from the rad to allow the majority of the clean water to drain. Refit the bottom hose.

Take the new 'stat and smear some silicone grease into the groove of the new seal, fit the seal around the 'stat so the 'stat sits in the internal groove. Smear the outside of the seal with silicone grease too. Remove the 'stat housing and fit the new 'stat, jiggle valve (if fitted) uppermost. Refit the housing and tighten the fasteners.

With the cooling system now intact (but empty) add about 4.5L of concentrated Etheylene Glycol antifreeze to the system.

I can't remember the total capacity, i think it's 9.6L on yours so you'll need 4.8L antifreeze if so, check the capacity and work out 50% of the total and put that amount of EG conc anrifreeze in.

Top up with water to the "MAX" level. Refit the cap and take it for a drive, return home, park preferably facing slightly uphill and leave to cool, overnight if possible.
Check the level the next morning and top up with water if necessary. Remember you've already added enough antifreeze, any shortfall in content needs water only.

Job done, enjoy!

Originally Posted by Othen

I’m planning to change as much of the Royal Barge’s ATF as I can get out in the next week or so; the gearbox is working fine, but I don’t know when it was last done. The good book says to drain the pan and top up, which is fine.

Obviously I won’t be able to get all the ATF out - I think the total capacity is about 6.5 litres. My question is, how much should I expect to be able to drain (just so I know how much ATF to buy)? From experience I’m guessing the answer will be about half the total.

Alan

First of all, invest in one of these :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-...K/174146415941

Also buy at least one of these :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carlube-A...e/233257297843

Hopefully somewhere, you have a clear, empty 5L container, make sure it's clean and dry.

Take the car for a drive of about 5-6 miles to warm up the gearbox ATF, return and park, facing downhill if possible. If your drive is level, reverse the car onto ramps so the back is higher than the front.

Engine off, remove the gearbox dipstick. Assemble the pump with the thin long suction tube on the inlet and push/wiggle the tube as far down the dipstick tube as possible.
Fit the pump discharge tube (the larger diameter one) on the pump outlet and the other end in the empty 5L container, arranged so it can't topple.

Connect the electrical clips red to battery +ve, black to battery -ve and switch the pump on for about 10s. Wait about 5s, switch on for 10s again then off, wait 5s, repeat. Once the ATF starts flowing, leave the pump running, go and have a coffee.

Usually takes about 25-30 minutes to suck as much ATF and sediment out as it's going to get in that session.
If it's still pumping on your return, you'll have to wait a few minutes, if it's slurping and not discharging much, if any, fluid, switch the pump off, remove the suction tube from the dipstick tube and lift the end so gravity forces the fluid towards the pump - switch on again for a few seconds to get it through and out of the pump.

Remove the pump and fit the lid on the 5L container and put it somewhere safe where it can settle.

You should have an idea how much fluid came out from the contents of the 5L container.
Add slightly less than this amount through the dipstick tube (a funnel is handy here!) of the ATF-U.

Start the engine, move the selector through all positions, returning to N after each position then move to a level area and with the engine idling, pull the dipstick, wipe it clean and re-insert, pulling it back out as soon as it reaches its "fully in" position.

Check the level on the "COLD" side, top up if necessary to "MAX" on the "COLD" side.

This is what i call a "part-change", repeat monthly for 2-3 months untl the fluid stays clean in between changes then do one part-change a year to keep it in spec.

Don't be tempted to do the "Gibbon" or full-flush method, it can wreak havoc with older boxes! It's also more wasteful on fluid!

The thing being, new fluid is thicker than the old fluid and the "seal-swell" present in all ATFs when new will have worn off, allowing the seals to start to dry and become brittle. Flushing the system with completely new fluid can cause the pressures to rise abnormally high causing premature seal failure, among other things.

You'll find the "recommended" fluid for your box is Dexron II-D, same as later 2/7/9xx models. The ATF-U is fully backwards compatible with that but is in fact better. Lexus use the AW70 box in the LS 400 and later models but call it the A341FE and insist the ATF meets or exceeds JWS3309 (also specified by Volvo for later cars) which ATF-U does.

While you're on a mission of changing fluids, does yours have PAS? If so, you can either use the pump in the PAS reservoir to empty it, top up with ATF-U, start the car and turn the steering from lovk-to-lock several times to bleed the system then top up if necessary. Alternatively a large syringe can be used to empty it - an empty Pot noodle pot is good as a discharge vessel as being white, it show up the dirt in the fluid.
Do the PAS fluid once a week until the fluid remains clean, usually about 3-4 weeks. You'll be surprised how much easier and smoother the steering is after!
Then do an empt/refil/bleed every 6-12 months depending on use to keep it clean.

With the engine oil, once it's used a bit (about 0.5L) before the next change, top it up with 0.5L of ATF-U and when you do the next oil/filter change, substitute the first litre of fresh oil with 1L of ATF-U then top up to the correct level with 10w40 Semi-Synth. You'll be surprised at the improvements!

On the suject of ATF-U, mix it 50/50 with acetone (nail varnish remover), shake well and use it as a penetrating/releasing fluid. It also derusts things too. I call it WMP - Weapon of Mass Penetration as i haven't found the fastener yet that hasn't yielded when it's been used.
That includes the turbo to manifold and downpipe flange bolts on a 20 year old car that had the living daylights thrashed off it, finally going bang at an alleged 150mph very close to Leyland (ironic considering what car it was!) and many other seemingly rust-welded fasteners.

The WMP has a tendency to separate so definitely keep sealed between uses and shake before each use. I used an old brake cleaner aerosol by drilling a 5mm hole in the concave base, cutting the rubber off a tyre valve so i was left with the brass insert and soldering it in. The end of the brass insert is about 5mm but is tapered so is a tight interference fit, soldering simply makes it tighter and gas tight. Remove the valve core and use syringes to add first the ATF-U then the same amount of acetone, refit the valve core and shake. Use a compressor to charge up to 100-120psi, original pressure on aerosols is about 250-260psi so isn't a problem at 100-120psi. Again, needs shaking before each use and is likely to need a top up of compressed air halfway through use.

Probably a bit more info than you asked for but all good!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

After 6 miles Alan it should be up to halfway on the temperature gauge. In fact, after about a mile it should be there, or very nearly! After the first 1/4-1/2 mile, you should have warmth from the heater and the gauge should be at least up to the first mark on the gauge.

First thing to check is the viscous coupling on the fan (assuming it has that and isn't a solid coupling). When cold, the fan should turn easily. Get the engine nice and hot, switch off and try again, it should be stiffer now.
If that's ok, the finger of blame is pointed well and truly at the thermostat. I'd strongly suggest giving the system a very good flush and a new thermostat.

I've typed this out many times but can't recall a recent thread where i've done it so i'll just do a list of instructions.

Before you start, douse the Jubilee clips involved and the 'stat housing nuts/bolts with releasing/penetrating oil. Let soak for a few days and repeat. Leave a few days more and give a final dousing.
Set the heater controls to "HOT"

Remove the bottom hose from the rad to drain the old coolant - catch it in something for safe disposal.

Refit the bottom hose and refill with plain water. Add a heavy-duty cooling system flush such as Comma X-Stream Flush or similar.

Take it for a drive. Instructions on the flush usually say "Run the engine for 15-20 minutes, drain and reverse flush" Drive about that amount of time out and then return.

Let the engine cool. Remove the 'stat housing and the thermostat. If memory serves correctly, the 'stat on the B21 has the seal around the actual 'stat, basically a grooved "O" ring. Clean the areas in the housing and on the head where the seal sits.
Refit the housing (no 'stat).

Remove the top hose from the rad. Insert your garden hose into the top hose and turn the hose on. Water should start flowing from the rad stub - go and have a coffee!

Come back after your coffee (remember it was clean water in there so not a problem about drains etc) and check to make sure the water is running clear. Move the hose into the expansion tank (can't remember if yours has one but if it does, do this step) and observe the water coming out of the top hose stub. Once clear, turn the hose off and remove the bottom hose from the rad to allow the majority of the clean water to drain. Refit the bottom hose.

Take the new 'stat and smear some silicone grease into the groove of the new seal, fit the seal around the 'stat so the 'stat sits in the internal groove. Smear the outside of the seal with silicone grease too. Remove the 'stat housing and fit the new 'stat, jiggle valve (if fitted) uppermost. Refit the housing and tighten the fasteners.

With the cooling system now intact (but empty) add about 4.5L of concentrated Etheylene Glycol antifreeze to the system.

I can't remember the total capacity, i think it's 9.6L on yours so you'll need 4.8L antifreeze if so, check the capacity and work out 50% of the total and put that amount of EG conc anrifreeze in.

Top up with water to the "MAX" level. Refit the cap and take it for a drive, return home, park preferably facing slightly uphill and leave to cool, overnight if possible.
Check the level the next morning and top up with water if necessary. Remember you've already added enough antifreeze, any shortfall in content needs water only.

Job done, enjoy!

First of all, invest in one of these :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-...K/174146415941

Also buy at least one of these :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carlube-A...e/233257297843

Hopefully somewhere, you have a clear, empty 5L container, make sure it's clean and dry.

Take the car for a drive of about 5-6 miles to warm up the gearbox ATF, return and park, facing downhill if possible. If your drive is level, reverse the car onto ramps so the back is higher than the front.

Engine off, remove the gearbox dipstick. Assemble the pump with the thin long suction tube on the inlet and push/wiggle the tube as far down the dipstick tube as possible.
Fit the pump discharge tube (the larger diameter one) on the pump outlet and the other end in the empty 5L container, arranged so it can't topple.

Connect the electrical clips red to battery +ve, black to battery -ve and switch the pump on for about 10s. Wait about 5s, switch on for 10s again then off, wait 5s, repeat. Once the ATF starts flowing, leave the pump running, go and have a coffee.

Usually takes about 25-30 minutes to suck as much ATF and sediment out as it's going to get in that session.
If it's still pumping on your return, you'll have to wait a few minutes, if it's slurping and not discharging much, if any, fluid, switch the pump off, remove the suction tube from the dipstick tube and lift the end so gravity forces the fluid towards the pump - switch on again for a few seconds to get it through and out of the pump.

Remove the pump and fit the lid on the 5L container and put it somewhere safe where it can settle.

You should have an idea how much fluid came out from the contents of the 5L container.
Add slightly less than this amount through the dipstick tube (a funnel is handy here!) of the ATF-U.

Start the engine, move the selector through all positions, returning to N after each position then move to a level area and with the engine idling, pull the dipstick, wipe it clean and re-insert, pulling it back out as soon as it reaches its "fully in" position.

Check the level on the "COLD" side, top up if necessary to "MAX" on the "COLD" side.

This is what i call a "part-change", repeat monthly for 2-3 months untl the fluid stays clean in between changes then do one part-change a year to keep it in spec.

Don't be tempted to do the "Gibbon" or full-flush method, it can wreak havoc with older boxes! It's also more wasteful on fluid!

The thing being, new fluid is thicker than the old fluid and the "seal-swell" present in all ATFs when new will have worn off, allowing the seals to start to dry and become brittle. Flushing the system with completely new fluid can cause the pressures to rise abnormally high causing premature seal failure, among other things.

You'll find the "recommended" fluid for your box is Dexron II-D, same as later 2/7/9xx models. The ATF-U is fully backwards compatible with that but is in fact better. Lexus use the AW70 box in the LS 400 and later models but call it the A341FE and insist the ATF meets or exceeds JWS3309 (also specified by Volvo for later cars) which ATF-U does.

While you're on a mission of changing fluids, does yours have PAS? If so, you can either use the pump in the PAS reservoir to empty it, top up with ATF-U, start the car and turn the steering from lovk-to-lock several times to bleed the system then top up if necessary. Alternatively a large syringe can be used to empty it - an empty Pot noodle pot is good as a discharge vessel as being white, it show up the dirt in the fluid.
Do the PAS fluid once a week until the fluid remains clean, usually about 3-4 weeks. You'll be surprised how much easier and smoother the steering is after!
Then do an empt/refil/bleed every 6-12 months depending on use to keep it clean.

With the engine oil, once it's used a bit (about 0.5L) before the next change, top it up with 0.5L of ATF-U and when you do the next oil/filter change, substitute the first litre of fresh oil with 1L of ATF-U then top up to the correct level with 10w40 Semi-Synth. You'll be surprised at the improvements!

On the suject of ATF-U, mix it 50/50 with acetone (nail varnish remover), shake well and use it as a penetrating/releasing fluid. It also derusts things too. I call it WMP - Weapon of Mass Penetration as i haven't found the fastener yet that hasn't yielded when it's been used.
That includes the turbo to manifold and downpipe flange bolts on a 20 year old car that had the living daylights thrashed off it, finally going bang at an alleged 150mph very close to Leyland (ironic considering what car it was!) and many other seemingly rust-welded fasteners.

The WMP has a tendency to separate so definitely keep sealed between uses and shake before each use. I used an old brake cleaner aerosol by drilling a 5mm hole in the concave base, cutting the rubber off a tyre valve so i was left with the brass insert and soldering it in. The end of the brass insert is about 5mm but is tapered so is a tight interference fit, soldering simply makes it tighter and gas tight. Remove the valve core and use syringes to add first the ATF-U then the same amount of acetone, refit the valve core and shake. Use a compressor to charge up to 100-120psi, original pressure on aerosols is about 250-260psi so isn't a problem at 100-120psi. Again, needs shaking before each use and is likely to need a top up of compressed air halfway through use.

Probably a bit more info than you asked for but all good!

As always - quite excellent Dave.

It looks like the coolant has probably been changed in that the hoses and clips are fairly new (a couple of years I'd say). The Royal Barge does seem to warm up slower than you describe though, so I'll do the system flush and fit the new thermostat I have (maybe the PO knew it needed one after all?).

The fan has a solid drive on the Royal Barge, so the engine will warm up a bit slower.

I've ordered the pump - what a good idea, I'd intended to take off the pan and drain the oil that way (there is a spare gasket for the oil pan in the spares box, so I'm guessing the PO had intended the same). This will be a lot less messier though, and within a month or so I'll have the ATF glistening. I recall having to do a similar routine with a GMC Jimny when I lived in Virginia, the auto gearboxes were notoriously weak on those trucks but it responded really well to small regular changes. I used to just siphon the ATF out with a piece of aquarium air line (it would take overnight to remove 2-3 litres), the electric pump will be much quicker.

I might as well take care of the power steering fluid at the same time. The car steers quite nicely for a barge, but it certainly won't do any harm to change the fluid over a period.

I found the other ends of the front fog lamp switch wires in the engine compartment this morn, just cut off and abandoned. That will make wiring up the lamps a bit easier when the relay etc arrives. I had a thought that I could just power the switch from the input for rear fog lamp switch that sits next to in - that way they will both respond in exactly the same conditions (when the sidelights are on).

The Royal Barge is so satisfying to work on - generally all the bits are there but they just need putting together properly. It is quickly becoming a really nice car.

Many thanks,

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Perhaps it would pay to remove the solid coupled fan entirely Alan with a view to converting to electric operation come the summer? It would warm up a lot quicker (saving a lot of fuel and engine wear) and be a hell of a lot quieter!

At this time of year, you don't really need a cooling fan anyway and even Volvo eventually progressed to electric fans for this reason.

Even if you did it as an experiment for a few short trips, i'm sure you'd see the difference and would give you the time to decide whether to make it a permanent change or revert back to the solid fan later.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Perhaps it would pay to remove the solid coupled fan entirely Alan with a view to converting to electric operation come the summer? It would warm up a lot quicker (saving a lot of fuel and engine wear) and be a hell of a lot quieter!

At this time of year, you don't really need a cooling fan anyway and even Volvo eventually progressed to electric fans for this reason.

Even if you did it as an experiment for a few short trips, i'm sure you'd see the difference and would give you the time to decide whether to make it a permanent change or revert back to the solid fan later.

Hi Dave,

By electric fan do you mean an electric coupling or an electrically powered fan? Would one fit from a later car, or is there perhaps an aftermarket kit?

Alan

PS. Rugby time: come on England!