240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[loki_the_glt]

There were other alternatives to the Dolomite Sprint and 02 BMW - Alfa Romeo's Alfetta - 4-doors, gorgeous twin-cam engine, better balance at 50-50, de Dion axle and transaxle set up. Or Fiat's 132, similar in spec but with a live axle.

Okay, they rusted, but so did the Triumphs. And the Beemers were tail-happy in the wet.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Are you sure you would Alan? An Italian car with a BMW engine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan...n%20EV3%20More

Technically they are British but have been Italian owned for about 18 months. I know the French, specifically Renault, have all but murdered Nissan and Mitsubishi, not to mention Vauxhall cars (now owned by Fiat) so it doesn't bode well for Morgan.
As far as i know, TVR are still independent (but feel free to correct me if that's wrong!) so are the only true British manufacturer left.

I didn't know about an Italian connection Dave. Dan and I watched one of those 'made in Britain' documentaries about the new model with the 6 cylinder BMW engine (I don't think Morgan has ever made its own engines, even the 3 wheelers had JAP bike motors). We were really impressed by all those chaps rolling body panels with English wheels and the like - and the factory stopping for a tea break every day.

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Agreed, Alan, and it has been so since the 1960s. When I turned 16, it was normal to ride some sort of sub £10 'fixer-upper', not unlike my Raleigh Runabout. I believe that I described it in an earlier post as being a reinforced pedal cycle with a 49cc two-stroke engine slung under the bottom bracket.

There was one lad in my class whose parents were perhaps a little better off than most and who bought him a new Honda 50 C100 (Cub) - this was in late 1964. What a beautiful machine: four-stroke OHV motor with full suspension, foot-rests and a pillion seat. Unrestricted in those far-off days, it would do over 40 MPH, return 100 + MPG and came with indicators, speedometer, electric horn, brake-light and mirrors, all as standard. I think the only 'extras' offered were a windscreen and panniers - there was even one fitted with an electric foot, the C102.

That should have rung warning bells loud and clear in the board-rooms of Britain at the time, but we chose to ignore it to our cost. It was just the same with cars in the '70s. As you said, even the most basic came with a radio, when not a decade earlier some British manufacturers were still listing heaters as optional extras - hard to imagine when you remember that the first Datsun (Nissan) was a CKD Austin 7!

Regards, John.

You are right John, those early (60s and 70s) Japanese bikes (particularly the 4-stroke Hondas) were beautiful machines: well designed and with excellent build quality. It is such a pity that BSA (at the time had the largest motorcycle factory in the world at Small Heath) didn't see it coming and so just kept turning out the same Bantams, C15s and B40s - 'if it were good enough for my dad, it's good enough for thee...'.

If one compares a C15 with a CB72 from the 60s - how could one not have seen the obvious outcome - but there again, everything is easy with hindsight.

:-(

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

I didn't know about an Italian connection Dave. Dan and I watched one of those 'made in Britain' documentaries about the new model with the 6 cylinder BMW engine (I don't think Morgan has ever made its own engines, even the 3 wheelers had JAP bike motors). We were really impressed by all those chaps rolling body panels with English wheels and the like - and the factory stopping for a tea break every day.

Alan

As you can see from the Wiki article Alan, the Italian connection is fairly recent. I remember way back when Morgan used Villiers engines in the smallest cars, the "Reliant Robin in reverse" where the engine and driving wheel was at the back and the steering wheels at the front.
I believe as you point out, they use Japanese motocycle engines instead on those models now.

Moving up the years to the mid 70s, they had the Morgan Four/Plus Four which used either Ford Pinto or Fiat Twin Cam engines, both 2.0 in size. Then there was the Plus 8 which looked similar but had a 3.5 Rover V8 lurking under the bonnet.

I know there have been other models but i don't know much about them, i think they did a three-wheeled version with a 2.0 front mounted engine at one point (just checked the website and they still do, a V-Twin 2.0 engine driving a Mazda 5 speed gearbox!) but it's incredibly sad they are no longer British owned.

One of the biggest problems faced by the British motor industry as a whole was the fact they often had Lords in charge. Many of them were in their dotage when they took the job on and just didn't accept that the "make do and mend" attitude of the buying public was going and they wanted faster, more economical, better equipped, more comfortable cars.

This is where the Japanese scored really well in the 70s, compare a Morris Marina 1.8 with a Datun 180B Bluebird. With the Bluebird, you got tinted glass, a drivers door mirror (usually), comfy seats with soft fabric coverings (usually similar to Dralon), a radio, heater that worked (usually a 3 or 4 speed fan with it) and twin headlamps. Oh yeah, and a heated rear window!
The Marina had vinyl seats, a sort of rubber floor covering instead of carpet, no tinted glass or radio and single headlamps and at best, a two speed fan on a heater that wasn't greatly effective. The HRW if memory serves was an option.
In terms of performance and economy, on paper at least they were similar. The Bluebird was usually quicker, more economical and more reliable - it also didn't have cart springs to keep the back end floating somewhere above the road but proper coil springs. I think up front the Bluebird had McPherson struts whereas the Marina relied on lever arm dampers (carried over from the Morris Minor! ) and torsion bar springing - again a hangover from the Minor.

The powers that be (or were) at BL said the Marina was a fine car and did the job and needed no further investment, either to revamp the model or to find a replacement. Meanwhile in Japan, Datsun already had the next generation Bluebird ready for production with many improvements.

This really demonstrates the lack of forward vision by British car company management by peers that knew they'd probably be either dead or certified senile by the time any recriminations were brought against them. As such, they just didn't care. We're now reaping the rewards of that lack of vision.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

As you can see from the Wiki article Alan, the Italian connection is fairly recent. I remember way back when Morgan used Villiers engines in the smallest cars, the "Reliant Robin in reverse" where the engine and driving wheel was at the back and the steering wheels at the front.
I believe as you point out, they use Japanese motocycle engines instead on those models now.

Hi Dave,

Not Japanese engines, but JA Prestwich (JAP) engines. JAP was one of the very famous names in the early days (certainly since before WW1) of British bikes, it produced air cooled single and V-twin motors for many other manufacturers - I'm pretty sure the Morgan 3 wheeler used a JAP air cooled OHV V-twin in the early days. I'm not sure what happened to JAP, it was probably taken over by BSA or AMC or one of the other conglomerates that were the British motorcycle industry after the war.

JAP engines did dominate speedway and grass track racing (for which they were coincidentally very well suited) until the OHC Jawa engines arrived in the 70s. I remember still seeing them at grass track meetings and still being competitive in the 1980s. By then they looked very dated indeed with exposed valve gear and very under-square engines. They always had a very pleasant smell: most grass trackers would run them on methyl alcohol and used Castrol R (lots of which got burned via the valve guides).

I almost forgot: the current 3 wheeler uses an American (well, American company, I'm not sure where they are built) S&S V-twin. S&S are like a properly built Harley Davidson, used a lot for drag racing and custom bikes in the USA because they are non-unit (i.e separate engine and gearbox).

:-)

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Hi Dave,

Not Japanese engines, but JA Prestwich (JAP) engines. JAP was one of the very famous names in the early days (certainly since before WW1) of British bikes, it produced air cooled single and V-twin motors for many other manufacturers - I'm pretty sure the Morgan 3 wheeler used a JAP air cooled OHV V-twin in the early days. I'm not sure what happened to JAP, it was probably taken over by BSA or AMC or one of the other conglomerates that were the British motorcycle industry after the war.

JAP engines did dominate speedway and grass track racing (for which they were coincidentally very well suited) until the OHC Jawa engines arrived in the 70s. I remember still seeing them at grass track meetings and still being competitive in the 1980s. By then they looked very dated indeed with exposed valve gear and very under-square engines. They always had a very pleasant smell: most grass trackers would run them on methyl alcohol and used Castrol R (lots of which got burned via the valve guides).

I almost forgot: the current 3 wheeler uses an American (well, American company, I'm not sure where they are built) S&S V-twin. S&S are like a properly built Harley Davidson, used a lot for drag racing and custom bikes in the USA because they are non-unit (i.e separate engine and gearbox).

:-)

My mistake Alan, i thought S&S were Japanese, didn't realise they were American! As for JA Prestwich, weren't they swallowed up by Villiers first and later by whoever swallowed Villers? Triumph-Norton comes to mind but could well be wrong on that.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

My mistake Alan, i thought S&S were Japanese, didn't realise they were American! As for JA Prestwich, weren't they swallowed up by Villiers first and later by whoever swallowed Villers? Triumph-Norton comes to mind but could well be wrong on that.

You may be right about JAP, I’m guessing the company was taken over by someone some time in the 50s or 60s, it could have been Villiers, although they were more renown as a 2 stroke company. I can’t remember how the amalgamations went, but there was certainly BSA/Triumph, and I think that group bought Sunbeam from AMC. AMC was Matchless/AJS, and I’m going to say Villiers because of the AJS Stormer motocross venture which started (if I remember correctly) with the Villiers Starmaker 250cc 2 stroker motor. Norton came from stage left late in the day when Denis Pore got involved for the government of the day. Anyway, the result was a thing called NVT (Norton Villiers Triumph), plus at that time the workers at the Meriden Triumph factory locked themselves in for about 4 years and produced a few bikes.

NVT hardly survived contact, I think they only made 2 bikes (the Norton Commando and the Triumph Trident) which were competitors for the same market. NVT made a few rotary engined bikes for the police.

It is irritating and frustrating to think that BSA (in particular) went from being the largest manufacturer in the early 60s to closing in 1971. When one looks at the quality of the a Japanese competition of the day (especially those beautiful Hondas, but Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki all made excellent bikes) it is not surprising what happened.

I’m heartened to see the success of the new Triumph company, which has gone from a start up to a very serious manufacturer since about 1990. It makes some excellent bikes, the design work is still English, but a lot of the assembly is now done in its Malaysian factories. The new Triumph bikes (I’ve owned 5 or 6 I should think) are really well made, very nearly as good as Honda (the benchmark for bikes) and generally better that all the European bikes. Triumph moving most assembly to Malaysia rather confirms that we Brits no longer have the stomach for the dull, repetitive world of industrial production.

We are still really good at science, research, development and design (probably better than anyone else, just look at the F1 car industry, which all comes from around Northampton (except Ferrari)). We just don’t seem to be able to do the mundane stuff any more, maybe life is just a bit too easy for us?

That was more rambling about bikes from Alan.

:-)

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

You may be right about JAP, I’m guessing the company was taken over by someone some time in the 50s or 60s, it could have been Villiers, although they were more renown as a 2 stroke company. I can’t remember how the amalgamations went, but there was certainly BSA/Triumph, and I think that group bought Sunbeam from AMC. AMC was Matchless/AJS, and I’m going to say Villiers because of the AJS Stormer motocross venture which started (if I remember correctly) with the Villiers Starmaker 250cc 2 stroker motor. Norton came from stage left late in the day when Denis Pore got involved for the government of the day. Anyway, the result was a thing called NVT (Norton Villiers Triumph), plus at that time the workers at the Meriden Triumph factory locked themselves in for about 4 years and produced a free bikes.

NVT hardly survived contact, I think they only made 2 bikes (the Norton Commando and the Triumph Trident) which were competitors for the same market. NVT made a few ****el engined bikes for the police.

It is irritating and frustrating to think that BSA (in particular) went from being the largest manufacturer in the early 60s to closing in 1971. When one looks at the quality of the a Japanese competition of the day (especially those beautiful Hondas, but Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki all made excellent bikes) it is not surprising what happened.

I’m heartened to see the success of the new Triumph company, which has gone from a start up to a very serious manufacturer since about 1990. It makes some excellent bikes, the design work is still English, but a lot of the assembly is now done in its Malaysian factories. The new Triumph bikes (I’ve owned 5 or 6 I should think) are really well made, very nearly as good as Honda (the benchmark for bikes) and generally better that all the European bikes. Triumph moving most assembly to Malaysia rather confirms that we Brits no longer have the stomach for the dull, repetitive world of industrial production.

We are still really good at science, research, development and design (probably better than anyone else, just look at the F1 car industry, which all comes from around Northampton (except Ferrari)). We just don’t seem to be able to do the mundane stuff any more, maybe life is just a bit too easy for us?

That was more rambling about bikes from Alan.

:-)

I knew there was some tie up between Triumph, Norton and Villiers at some point. Also that BSA-Regal Engineering down i Southampton owned the names of BSA, Triumph and Norton (possibly Villiers too) and were producing new bikes with those names on about 20 years ago.

Other than that i don't know much about the bike story but i've just made a similar comment on the Rover forum in response to someone elses observation that we don't seem to be interested in making the run of the mill stuff here anymore.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I knew there was some tie up between Triumph, Norton and Villiers at some point. Also that BSA-Regal Engineering down i Southampton owned the names of BSA, Triumph and Norton (possibly Villiers too) and were producing new bikes with those names on about 20 years ago.

Other than that i don't know much about the bike story but i've just made a similar comment on the Rover forum in response to someone elses observation that we don't seem to be interested in making the run of the mill stuff here anymore.

If one understands the car industry story then one understands the bike industry story as well Dave, just substitute BSA for BL and so on. In the latter period one could substitute Triumph (John Bloor) for Nissan (Sunderland) and understand what has happened well.

We Brits have (since 1945) constructed a pretty socialist state where everything is a bit free and easy (hence it being such a popular place and the population increasing by 300,000/year). The downside is that we no longer have the stomach for production engineering.

I see it first hand here in Corby; the Corby jocks rue the demise of the steel town (all the fault of the management of course... not) but the truth is they were a pretty unproductive bunch and as the iron ore started running out they were too expensive to employ for what they did.

I sometimes wonder if someone discovered some really valuable mineral deposit under our feet whether we Brits would have the stomach to build a new Corby somewhere (as we did in the 1920s) to exploit it. I know the answer already of course: one can already see enormous resistance to fracking for oil and gas in Southern England. Ho hum, we can carry on making money by selling each other mortgages and spend it on Chinese manufactured goods for quite a while yet.

I enjoy talking about motorbikes much more than social economics.

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I knew there was some tie up between Triumph, Norton and Villiers at some point. Also that BSA-Regal Engineering down i Southampton owned the names of BSA, Triumph and Norton (possibly Villiers too) and were producing new bikes with those names on about 20 years ago.
.

Good morn Dave,

Not the Triumph name, that has belonged to John Bloor since the early 1980s. Bloor is a good bloke, came up from humble beginnings to make a fortune building houses (my father knew him and did some contracting work for him back in the 70s - he was fortunate to be in the building business during one of our boom periods when everyone made money). He decided to put a good amount of his money into the modern Triumph company and did it the right way: good market research, good designs and high quality products whilst making the Triumph name a designer brand. That has been a success story.

The Norton name has been sold and re-sold many times - sometimes to more than one party simultaneously (i.e separately in North America where Kenny Drere had a go at manufacturing a modern Commando and nearly made it).

Some of the other names have variously been sold off, mostly to Chinese manufacturers who re-brand bikes for the European markets. The AJS name lives on in this way (some of the 50cc bikes are quite neat). There is no English input to the bikes apart from putting on the stickers.

Enough rambling for 06:15 hrs, it is time for Bob's first walk.

Alan

PS. Back from Bob's first walk. I'd forgotten about the Royal Enfield name in the above. An English company based in Reddich that got a huge contract to supply bikes to the Indian Army in the 50s, it made sense to first assemble the bikes locally in India from British parts, then to use Indian sourced parts and eventually to run the much larger factory there whilst the Reddich works ran down (same reasons as BSA et al). The brand is Indian owned now and has carved out a niche in the market - it is interesting that it has established a British design and development facility (able to do a bit of adaptation to bikes for the European market).