Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum

Mar 17th, 2004, 13:06

Someone remarked that there were many people using 'pirated' versions of VADIS, there needs to be a question why, my feeling is that it is the general attitude of Volvo. I'd be interested to know why others have acquired it - and what they do with it (without the cables it is pretty useless)

I myself have this and am looking for the cables etc. but I don't regard it as 'piracy' more as a 'protest' I totally reject the 'monopolising' that many of the dealers are now engaging in VAG, Volvo, Mercedes etc etc. Audi now have a car that only Audi can open the bonnet on !!

The price charged by Volvo for the software and equipment does not reflect the quality of the software (it isn't that good or clever in software terms) or the support, the length of time it takes to install is outrageous. And once you have paid your thousands AND your subscription to then be required to pay for downloads of software updates for a car smacks to me of Microsoft monopolisation and greed which I also reject, to need to spend 20 quid just to download a software mod to turn my damned fog lights on - give me a break. I was recently charged the best part of £200 just to have a spare key cut and programmed - this to me is theft and unacceptable - I was also told that the remote locking facility was not available (supposed to be standard but somehow got missed on mine) - they want £700 to install it and I'll put money on it only being a software download. Again the VADIS I have does not provide such details.

And before I get flamed I left the motor trade for the IT business, I have designed systems and software for much more complex systems and the VADIS system really isn't that good or clever, it is slow, cumbersome, the user interface is poor, it is not intuitive and relies too heavily on web based technology hence the graphics are often very poor, there aren't even any photographs to assist in the identification of superceded versus modified parts or their fitting. There is no reason why the VADIS central database couldn't store a cars entire history for retrieval in whichever dealer you take it to - but it doesn't.

The excessive charges can only be there to discourage buyers and non franchise users. Now if Volvo were to provide a special version for DIY users, maybe dedicated to their particular vehicle at a significantly reduced cost I would probably buy it legitimately, after all I'm only going to use it once or twice a year and on my own motor and have intention of making commercial use of it.

They could of course feel that the 'quality image' of their brand would be damaged if many people 'messed things up' - my answer to this isn't printable.

I also acquired it because having worked in it (for several principle manufacturers not a back street joe) I distrust anyone in the motor trade, many these days replace components with no good reason, a computer diagnosis is one thing but it is no substitute for the common sense of a real engineer (unfortunately too many of todays so called mechanics couldn't fix a leaky tap). I come from the school where intuition and experience could tell you where to look simply by looking, listening and smelling - no computers needed.

I insist that any parts removed are left in the boot so I can get them independantly checked - you would be amazed how many Volvo dealers refuse - what are they hiding. I also had my motor checked and all the brake discs were below the tolerances but this wasn't picked up. Too many so called mechanics these days aren't, they are incapable of diagnosing without such tools, in my day we were engineers first, mechanics after.

There is coming a time when a test case similar to the recent one in the USA was brought (in the USA it is illegal to restrict an owners access to his own property or force him by doing so to obtain goods and services from only one supplier) - I'd like to bet there would be a good case on similar grounds here. As a result manufacturers must publish their protocols. It is similar in Germany so I'm not sure how Volvo got away with it over there - perhaps their get out is that you can buy VADIS if you are rich enough, they will sell it to you.

Footnote - Perhaps we as club members should have an additional subscription and buy our own 'legit' VADIS, I am sure there are plenty of members capable of using it who will assist others who aren't. If anyone has a set of 'enabled' VADIS cables for sale drop me a line.

Mar 17th, 2004, 15:57

Here here.

I fully agree with everything you say. If manufacturers made such products available to their customers there would be no need for piracy.

Manufacturers should provide a copy of the software with a new vehicle (which can then be passed on to successive owners) which could be vehicle specific rather than for the whole range. They should also provide the necessary equipment such as cables at a modest cost rather than making it prohibitive for the DIY enthusiast. By modest cost I mean cost price plus similar percentage mark up as normal parts.

It is completely unjust that those with the ability, knowledge and patience to work on their own cars are prevented from doing so because manufacturers will not provide the necessary means at a reasonable cost.

You make the point about so called vehicle techs not doing the job properly. I fully agree. As I have learned through my job and my car, "if you want something doing properly then do it yourself".

BTW, what does VADIS stand for?

Andy

Dan F · Mar 17th, 2004, 16:22

I think it is 'Volvo Automated Diagnostic Information System'.

Could be wrong though.... ;-)

Dan.

GorgeousGeorge · Mar 17th, 2004, 16:45

Volvo Aftersales Diagnostic and Information System

o.k. i had to search for it, not off the top of my head like Mr F :P

scott

Wentworth Man · Mar 17th, 2004, 19:39

Hi all,
First things first we know Volvo is aware of this forum - and reads it - so be careful what you type (you may think it, we may agree with you, but we don't want unwarranted interference).
Having said that, I work in IT as well and feel pretty much the same but.... the software that now controls our cars is not ours. We do not buy it, we buy convenience and a service and a style and I am sure somewhere somebody will find a clause that says it is the IPR of Volvo. Open Source it certainly isn't but that doesn't meant it could not be. Do you have the same worry over a Sky box? If you do, I know where you are coming from.
VADIS which 'talks' to the car software is only the presentation and data interface layer so a different systems again and one I dont see a problem in there being a publicly available alternative. I don't think Volvo sell VADIS at all - but they ought to, most are time expired or dealer clearouts. Without leads it is only information (useful for parts and procesdures), the connector is defined ISO but pinout is different ...but you can get them. So the real challenge is to get a copy of VADIS, roll your own connector to talk and away you go...WRONG (it used to be serial RS232 on earlier versions on a standard HP PC) The car software is a database and we don't know (yet) what the values mean nor what changes will cause - how many have played with Windows Registry and crashed the PC....do you want that on your car? Am sure that somebody somehwere is working out the bus protocols ;) So what you really are prepared to pay for is their investment. I agree that 20 quid to turn your lights on is a rip off but that is dealer labour time not Volvo cost and if its central locking should have been fitted then argue Trades Description at them - it will cost them more than that in bad publicity and fines. To me that is why Dealers are not good value because what they should have done was given you VALUE. Only your pound is powerful when you and I go elsewhere - consumer power - but most people wont care, which is why we have lousy dealers in the main. If I find a good dealer or independent, he gets my business. And that most certainly means a mechanic not someone who can read a screen and cannot think "what caused that to happen, why and how do we stop it happening again?" Your point on the replacement parts is well made.

I think the new versions of VADIS do talk to the central database in the factory because the database and downloads are controlled from there and do build on the configuration history for the vehicle (but this is recent). AFAIK any dealer can access that database for your vehicle but only for new models, S60 onwards?

So to cut a long ramble, there is nothing to stop us lifting the hood, just don't expect to have anyone listen if it breaks. But I must have broken my PC and rebuilt loads of times :) Drop me a line off forum if you want to talk IT as seemingly not many IT people drive Volvos, wonder why? Embedded LINUX runs my Volvo (I wish, see the penguin!!)

Tony

Ben O Brien · Mar 17th, 2004, 19:55

Hi
I totally agree with your comment on the mechanics of today,
I am nearing the end of my days in secondary education and was wondering what the hell am i going to do with the rest of my life so for a work experience placement i decided to go to a mechanic due to my massive interest in cars.Originaly going to volvo dealer,cancelled at last minute and i reluctantly ended up in a MG Rover dealership.
The mechanics there couldnt give a toss about the cars,they neither had skill,intelligence or interest.
Im not saying ALL mechanics are like this but in my experience the majority of them today are.
They were certainly not like the older generation mechanics that i know who have bucket loads of skill.
Needless to say i decided to go down the college route and stick with the original idea of law...
Oh yes P.S. As much as i have critiscised the 850 i now know how good it is after "experiencing" Rovers in detail, Just glad i dont have a 75 or similar...bloody head gaskets....

Mar 17th, 2004, 20:05

GeorI use Vadis for one thing and one thing only, part numbers. The way I see it, I am saving the dealer a great deal of money and headache. Instead of walking in there and say "ok, I need that bit that sits there and looks like this and has a bend here", I just say I need two 14587565. Very simple, very good. He enters the part number in his system and gives me the price. I buy all my parts from one Volvo dealer and they make huge amounts of money on me. They know I will never walk in there and order a brand new XC90, but they also know that I will come in once or twice a week and spend anything from 50 to 500 quid on parts. If Volvo wants to take me to court for violating copyright, go on! I know several lawyers in Brussels, Stockholm, London and New York willing to help me and I have done nothing wrong. Every day I market and promote their products.

I agree with the general sentiment about dealers and monopolising but then we live in a strange world. Volvo used to be very pro old cars, in Sweden for example they set up an organisation to which they gave all their old parts for free, this organisation then sells them on to enthusiasts for a small sum of money. Perhaps this spirit is gone now with Ford, if so that is a shame but then again, without Ford Volvo would have died.

George

[link:www.ttsservices.co.uk/my%20volvos.htm|http://www.ttsservices.co.uk/imm021.jpg]

'95 940 Polar LPT estate (B230FK/AW71)
'87 740 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler estate (D24TIC/ZF22)
'80 240 GLT estate (B23E/AW71)
'79 262C (B27E/BW55)

Mar 17th, 2004, 20:06

I love English cars, almost as much as I love Volvos but my word, the built quality is ****e!

George

[link:www.ttsservices.co.uk/my%20volvos.htm|http://www.ttsservices.co.uk/imm021.jpg]

'95 940 Polar LPT estate (B230FK/AW71)
'87 740 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler estate (D24TIC/ZF22)
'80 240 GLT estate (B23E/AW71)
'79 262C (B27E/BW55)

Ben O Brien · Mar 17th, 2004, 20:20

The 75(it being the most popular car in there) in my opinion looks fantastic and has a nice dash etc but as you rightly point out the build quality is ****e..Nobody can disuade me from that.
was talking to head salesman and he told me 1 in 4 cars they sell(25's,45's,75's in particular) come back in within 40k miles with head gasket failure. but this isnt just a new thing there was various rover 400's and 600's with the same problem, why dont rover just address this problem and fix it for once and for all, apparantly due to the head and block made of certain material that dont go well together(dont ask me which i cant remember!!)

Wentworth Man · Mar 17th, 2004, 20:22

Must be why the 1800 became the 1800S then :)
I'd better duck quick now then.

Only the English have real automotive design to a T, trouble is we need the others to make it to production, make any money and then take it just a bit further with Italian stylee.

I do love my 940 honest! Analogue, engineered to last and RWD

Mar 17th, 2004, 13:06	#1
Garfield Guest Location:	Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum Someone remarked that there were many people using 'pirated' versions of VADIS, there needs to be a question why, my feeling is that it is the general attitude of Volvo. I'd be interested to know why others have acquired it - and what they do with it (without the cables it is pretty useless) I myself have this and am looking for the cables etc. but I don't regard it as 'piracy' more as a 'protest' I totally reject the 'monopolising' that many of the dealers are now engaging in VAG, Volvo, Mercedes etc etc. Audi now have a car that only Audi can open the bonnet on !! The price charged by Volvo for the software and equipment does not reflect the quality of the software (it isn't that good or clever in software terms) or the support, the length of time it takes to install is outrageous. And once you have paid your thousands AND your subscription to then be required to pay for downloads of software updates for a car smacks to me of Microsoft monopolisation and greed which I also reject, to need to spend 20 quid just to download a software mod to turn my damned fog lights on - give me a break. I was recently charged the best part of £200 just to have a spare key cut and programmed - this to me is theft and unacceptable - I was also told that the remote locking facility was not available (supposed to be standard but somehow got missed on mine) - they want £700 to install it and I'll put money on it only being a software download. Again the VADIS I have does not provide such details. And before I get flamed I left the motor trade for the IT business, I have designed systems and software for much more complex systems and the VADIS system really isn't that good or clever, it is slow, cumbersome, the user interface is poor, it is not intuitive and relies too heavily on web based technology hence the graphics are often very poor, there aren't even any photographs to assist in the identification of superceded versus modified parts or their fitting. There is no reason why the VADIS central database couldn't store a cars entire history for retrieval in whichever dealer you take it to - but it doesn't. The excessive charges can only be there to discourage buyers and non franchise users. Now if Volvo were to provide a special version for DIY users, maybe dedicated to their particular vehicle at a significantly reduced cost I would probably buy it legitimately, after all I'm only going to use it once or twice a year and on my own motor and have intention of making commercial use of it. They could of course feel that the 'quality image' of their brand would be damaged if many people 'messed things up' - my answer to this isn't printable. I also acquired it because having worked in it (for several principle manufacturers not a back street joe) I distrust anyone in the motor trade, many these days replace components with no good reason, a computer diagnosis is one thing but it is no substitute for the common sense of a real engineer (unfortunately too many of todays so called mechanics couldn't fix a leaky tap). I come from the school where intuition and experience could tell you where to look simply by looking, listening and smelling - no computers needed. I insist that any parts removed are left in the boot so I can get them independantly checked - you would be amazed how many Volvo dealers refuse - what are they hiding. I also had my motor checked and all the brake discs were below the tolerances but this wasn't picked up. Too many so called mechanics these days aren't, they are incapable of diagnosing without such tools, in my day we were engineers first, mechanics after. There is coming a time when a test case similar to the recent one in the USA was brought (in the USA it is illegal to restrict an owners access to his own property or force him by doing so to obtain goods and services from only one supplier) - I'd like to bet there would be a good case on similar grounds here. As a result manufacturers must publish their protocols. It is similar in Germany so I'm not sure how Volvo got away with it over there - perhaps their get out is that you can buy VADIS if you are rich enough, they will sell it to you. Footnote - Perhaps we as club members should have an additional subscription and buy our own 'legit' VADIS, I am sure there are plenty of members capable of using it who will assist others who aren't. If anyone has a set of 'enabled' VADIS cables for sale drop me a line.

Mar 17th, 2004, 15:57	#2
mraldonnelly Guest Location:	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum Here here. I fully agree with everything you say. If manufacturers made such products available to their customers there would be no need for piracy. Manufacturers should provide a copy of the software with a new vehicle (which can then be passed on to successive owners) which could be vehicle specific rather than for the whole range. They should also provide the necessary equipment such as cables at a modest cost rather than making it prohibitive for the DIY enthusiast. By modest cost I mean cost price plus similar percentage mark up as normal parts. It is completely unjust that those with the ability, knowledge and patience to work on their own cars are prevented from doing so because manufacturers will not provide the necessary means at a reasonable cost. You make the point about so called vehicle techs not doing the job properly. I fully agree. As I have learned through my job and my car, "if you want something doing properly then do it yourself". BTW, what does VADIS stand for? Andy

Mar 17th, 2004, 16:22	#3
Dan F Premier Member Last Online: Apr 7th, 2008 13:05 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Worcs	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum I think it is 'Volvo Automated Diagnostic Information System'. Could be wrong though.... ;-) Dan.

Mar 17th, 2004, 16:45	#4
GorgeousGeorge Bostin !!! Last Online: Aug 22nd, 2019 19:07 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Monkhopton	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum Volvo Aftersales Diagnostic and Information System o.k. i had to search for it, not off the top of my head like Mr F :P scott

Mar 17th, 2004, 19:39	#5
Wentworth Man VOC Member Last Online: Aug 24th, 2020 16:51 Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Reading View Photos By: Wentworth Man	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum Hi all, First things first we know Volvo is aware of this forum - and reads it - so be careful what you type (you may think it, we may agree with you, but we don't want unwarranted interference). Having said that, I work in IT as well and feel pretty much the same but.... the software that now controls our cars is not ours. We do not buy it, we buy convenience and a service and a style and I am sure somewhere somebody will find a clause that says it is the IPR of Volvo. Open Source it certainly isn't but that doesn't meant it could not be. Do you have the same worry over a Sky box? If you do, I know where you are coming from. VADIS which 'talks' to the car software is only the presentation and data interface layer so a different systems again and one I dont see a problem in there being a publicly available alternative. I don't think Volvo sell VADIS at all - but they ought to, most are time expired or dealer clearouts. Without leads it is only information (useful for parts and procesdures), the connector is defined ISO but pinout is different ...but you can get them. So the real challenge is to get a copy of VADIS, roll your own connector to talk and away you go...WRONG (it used to be serial RS232 on earlier versions on a standard HP PC) The car software is a database and we don't know (yet) what the values mean nor what changes will cause - how many have played with Windows Registry and crashed the PC....do you want that on your car? Am sure that somebody somehwere is working out the bus protocols ;) So what you really are prepared to pay for is their investment. I agree that 20 quid to turn your lights on is a rip off but that is dealer labour time not Volvo cost and if its central locking should have been fitted then argue Trades Description at them - it will cost them more than that in bad publicity and fines. To me that is why Dealers are not good value because what they should have done was given you VALUE. Only your pound is powerful when you and I go elsewhere - consumer power - but most people wont care, which is why we have lousy dealers in the main. If I find a good dealer or independent, he gets my business. And that most certainly means a mechanic not someone who can read a screen and cannot think "what caused that to happen, why and how do we stop it happening again?" Your point on the replacement parts is well made. I think the new versions of VADIS do talk to the central database in the factory because the database and downloads are controlled from there and do build on the configuration history for the vehicle (but this is recent). AFAIK any dealer can access that database for your vehicle but only for new models, S60 onwards? So to cut a long ramble, there is nothing to stop us lifting the hood, just don't expect to have anyone listen if it breaks. But I must have broken my PC and rebuilt loads of times :) Drop me a line off forum if you want to talk IT as seemingly not many IT people drive Volvos, wonder why? Embedded LINUX runs my Volvo (I wish, see the penguin!!) Tony __________________ '02 V70 D5 SE (BKV Best in Class 2006 and 2007) '92 945 Wentworth 114k '95 945 SE 100K '92 945 S 150K The Moon is 238857 miles distant from the Earth so I've been to the moon and back in mine...and it only took me 14 years!

Mar 17th, 2004, 19:55	#6
Ben O Brien Senior Member Last Online: Nov 8th, 2023 18:22 Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: limerick	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum Hi I totally agree with your comment on the mechanics of today, I am nearing the end of my days in secondary education and was wondering what the hell am i going to do with the rest of my life so for a work experience placement i decided to go to a mechanic due to my massive interest in cars.Originaly going to volvo dealer,cancelled at last minute and i reluctantly ended up in a MG Rover dealership. The mechanics there couldnt give a toss about the cars,they neither had skill,intelligence or interest. Im not saying ALL mechanics are like this but in my experience the majority of them today are. They were certainly not like the older generation mechanics that i know who have bucket loads of skill. Needless to say i decided to go down the college route and stick with the original idea of law... Oh yes P.S. As much as i have critiscised the 850 i now know how good it is after "experiencing" Rovers in detail, Just glad i dont have a 75 or similar...bloody head gaskets.... __________________ 82' 242 Cal Import, restoration beginning.. WTD: Rare 240/242 Parts, please pm if you have anything

Mar 17th, 2004, 20:05	#7
George Holmer Guest Location:	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum GeorI use Vadis for one thing and one thing only, part numbers. The way I see it, I am saving the dealer a great deal of money and headache. Instead of walking in there and say "ok, I need that bit that sits there and looks like this and has a bend here", I just say I need two 14587565. Very simple, very good. He enters the part number in his system and gives me the price. I buy all my parts from one Volvo dealer and they make huge amounts of money on me. They know I will never walk in there and order a brand new XC90, but they also know that I will come in once or twice a week and spend anything from 50 to 500 quid on parts. If Volvo wants to take me to court for violating copyright, go on! I know several lawyers in Brussels, Stockholm, London and New York willing to help me and I have done nothing wrong. Every day I market and promote their products. I agree with the general sentiment about dealers and monopolising but then we live in a strange world. Volvo used to be very pro old cars, in Sweden for example they set up an organisation to which they gave all their old parts for free, this organisation then sells them on to enthusiasts for a small sum of money. Perhaps this spirit is gone now with Ford, if so that is a shame but then again, without Ford Volvo would have died. George [link:www.ttsservices.co.uk/my%20volvos.htm\|http://www.ttsservices.co.uk/imm021.jpg] '95 940 Polar LPT estate (B230FK/AW71) '87 740 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler estate (D24TIC/ZF22) '80 240 GLT estate (B23E/AW71) '79 262C (B27E/BW55)

Mar 17th, 2004, 20:06	#8
George Holmer Guest Location:	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum I love English cars, almost as much as I love Volvos but my word, the built quality is ****e! George [link:www.ttsservices.co.uk/my%20volvos.htm\|http://www.ttsservices.co.uk/imm021.jpg] '95 940 Polar LPT estate (B230FK/AW71) '87 740 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler estate (D24TIC/ZF22) '80 240 GLT estate (B23E/AW71) '79 262C (B27E/BW55)

Mar 17th, 2004, 20:20	#9
Ben O Brien Senior Member Last Online: Nov 8th, 2023 18:22 Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: limerick	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum The 75(it being the most popular car in there) in my opinion looks fantastic and has a nice dash etc but as you rightly point out the build quality is ***e..Nobody can disuade me from that. was talking to head salesman and he told me 1 in 4 cars they sell(25's,45's,75's in particular) come back in within 40k miles with head gasket failure. but this isnt just a new thing there was various rover 400's and 600's with the same problem, why dont rover just address this problem and fix it for once and for all, apparantly due to the head and block made of certain material that dont go well together(dont ask me which i cant remember!!) __________________ 82' 242 Cal Import, restoration beginning.. WTD: Rare 240/242 Parts, please pm if you have anything*

Mar 17th, 2004, 20:22	#10
Wentworth Man VOC Member Last Online: Aug 24th, 2020 16:51 Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Reading View Photos By: Wentworth Man	RE: Follow on From VADIS Statement in Support forum Must be why the 1800 became the 1800S then :) I'd better duck quick now then. Only the English have real automotive design to a T, trouble is we need the others to make it to production, make any money and then take it just a bit further with Italian stylee. I do love my 940 honest! Analogue, engineered to last and RWD __________________ '02 V70 D5 SE (BKV Best in Class 2006 and 2007) '92 945 Wentworth 114k '95 945 SE 100K '92 945 S 150K The Moon is 238857 miles distant from the Earth so I've been to the moon and back in mine...and it only took me 14 years!

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