timing details for a 1970 145 fitted with petronix ignition - Page 2

145estate · Feb 7th, 2021, 22:00

Hi, running the standard stromberg and no haven’t investigated the diaphragm yet.

Laird Scooby · Feb 8th, 2021, 00:55

Check the coil connections are correct on the LT side, the -ve goes to the contact breaker/distributor and the other connection should be on the +ve terminal of the coil. Also if you have a ballast resistor in the system, this may be playing up when hot, likewise the condensor on the distributor.

You're right that if the dizzy cap was fitted with 2 leads 180 degrees out it would barely run and would backfire.

May also be worth substituting a known good coil if you have one.

It sounds like a heat related problem so the diaphragm in the carb is probably not the culprit, also any problem would be present all the time with a compromised diaphragm. Worth checking you have enought ATF in the carb dashpot and also that the choke mechanism is returning fully when the choke is pushed fully home.

142 Guy · Feb 8th, 2021, 05:08

It is unclear. Did the poor operation start before the maintenance and the maintenance work was carried out as a remedy or did the poor operation emerge after the maintenance. If the poor operation predates the replacement of the distributor cap, the distributor cap clearly cannot be the cause for the problems.

Assuming that the problems emerged after the maintenance, consider the following:

Depends on what the mechanic means by 180 deg out of position. If the plug leads are switched 1-4 & 2-3 (180 deg out) then the engine will absolutely not run. If the plug leads are in the correct position; but, the distributor cap is 180 deg out of position resulting in the cap not seating correctly that could result in erratic operation. In my opinion two points conspire against that hypothesis. The first is that based upon my 142 I don't know how you would get the cap 180 deg out of position without it being incredibly obvious - even to a junior. The second is that if the cap is mounted incorrectly and causing the problem I would expect that the problem would be present right on start up and not get progressively worse.

If they adjusted the ignition timing I might be inclined to think that perhaps they forgot to tighten the distributor adjustment bolt and that the timing started to slip during operation. A check of the static timing would quickly confirm or refute that hypothesis.

The other hypothesis is that it could be gradual fuel starvation. You installed a new fuel pump. I have D jet with an electric fuel pump so I have no hands on experience with the mechanical fuel pumps; however, I believe that the replacement mechanical fuel pumps require a spacer between the flange and the block. See the application note On VP's web site

https://vp-autoparts.com/en/artiklar...-fits-61-.html

The spacer is not included with the pump and if not installed the pump has a miserably short life. Also, if you have serious contamination in your fuel tank you could have clogged your fuel filter resulting in starvation which may only materialize under high load.

Burdekin · Feb 8th, 2021, 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by 145estate

Hi, running the standard stromberg and no haven’t investigated the diaphragm yet.

Worth changing annually when you do your service. They are a known weak point and can fail without any signs. Easy 10min job and always carry a spare.

But if they’ve been doing work on the dizzy and before then there were no issues then most likely it’s just something wrong with there.

145estate · Feb 8th, 2021, 08:05

Hi, the bad running happened before the new dizzy cap/plugsfuel pump/air filter etc were fitted... Car ran perfect for 4 months. I first noticed problem about 3 weeks ago, car would drive fine ie start up first time and pull nicely, then after maybe 10 mins or 30 mins ( could be any length of time it would start behaving badly ie flat acceleration/surging... sometimes coming off gas helped, other times putting foot flat to the floor and giving it an Italian time up helped... then it drove fine for another 10 mins then started happening again. Last week it broke down on the motorway after driving perfectly fine for 40 or so miles... just stopped dead. Turned out the spring nodule in top of distributor cap came out inside.
Hence the though that ignition could be the culprit.
This Saturday before I took the car to the mechanic I put the spring nodule back in the cap and it started fine, I then noticed if I touch the two leads coming from the coil to the fixing on the distributor the engine would stall/run erratically.

145estate · Feb 8th, 2021, 08:18

Part two... after making sure the two leads weren’t touching anything, I jumped in and drove around for over an hour with no problems, no erratic behaviour or surging/stalling or loss of power as before... obviously though it was still a good idea to replace stuff so brought it too mechanic, got it back yesterday and reported the running problems as stated in my first post on this subject. My mechanic informed me it looked like there’d been a short inside the distributor where one of the leads had become damaged... he therefore fixed new connections/wiring ( not completely sure what as conversation was short due to it snowing heavily and I just wanted to get it home safely) but as said before it drove poorly... it didn’t really act quiet as bad as before but seriously lacked power and was struggling really.
The other thing to note is that it’s suffered from a leak on the back screen rubber, which culminates in water sitting in the well above the fuel thank, noticed an inch of water. I wondered whether water could have got in tank and somehow contaminated the fuel system?... I put through a fuel cleaner meant to clean out lines etc if contaminated whether it did the job I’m not sure.... but if it is a water/fuel problem why could I not make it happen over a period of an hour on Saturday?...

Burdekin · Feb 8th, 2021, 08:59

Did you replace the coil? It could be an issue when it gets hot. They aren’t expensive so worth putting in a new one.

Amazon cars do a video about the 123 dizzy, any issues like this he just changes over to a 123 dizzy and sees if that cures it. Don’t want to say do this and that and you just chase your tail.

When I got my B20A I did a mini overhaul of the ignition and fuel systems so new coil, leads, 123 dizzy, fuel pump, clean the carb, diaphragm and a new air filter. The air filter was horrendously dirty and blocked and made a notable difference. I thought it was worth doing just for peace of mind and it runs lovely.

145estate · Feb 8th, 2021, 09:53

No haven’t changed coil yet, but yes air filter/oil filter changed and crankcase to air filter breather hose... also following on rim 142 guys suggestion re fuel pump.. yes I did use the spacer block....the ht leads are new, along with plugs ( was running Bosch but could only get ngk from brook house ... rotor arm and cap (again brown cap as previous black one failed)....new fuel pump ( pierburg)... once the weather gets better it might be a good idea to empty tank and check fuel lines and fuel filter ( couldn’t get replacement metal type from brookhouse) they had a metal one for a 164 but that uses electric pump so we were unsure whether a mechanical one would have enough pull etc....

Laird Scooby · Feb 8th, 2021, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by 145estate

No haven’t changed coil yet, but yes air filter/oil filter changed and crankcase to air filter breather hose... also following on rim 142 guys suggestion re fuel pump.. yes I did use the spacer block....the ht leads are new, along with plugs ( was running Bosch but could only get ngk from brook house ... rotor arm and cap (again brown cap as previous black one failed)....new fuel pump ( pierburg)... once the weather gets better it might be a good idea to empty tank and check fuel lines and fuel filter ( couldn’t get replacement metal type from brookhouse) they had a metal one for a 164 but that uses electric pump so we were unsure whether a mechanical one would have enough pull etc....

You may have condensation in your tank but whether it's condensation or water from somewhere else, it will fall to the bottom of the tank and cause problems on cold starts, not let the engine run for a period of time then cause problems.

Next time it cuts out after becoming sluggish, undo the fuel filler cap, listening for any hiss. If there is a hiss, it could be building a vacuum in the tank preventing fuel flow. If it then restarts fairly easily and takes a similar amount of time/distance to stop again, it could be a blocked tank breather (maybe even in the cap itself) somewhere.

145estate · Feb 8th, 2021, 12:48

thanks for all your replies and suggestions..I guess its always the same on these old cars ..basically a series of eliminations, mechanic has promised to come over tonight and take a look....hes sure the caps been put on incorrectly and he didn't time the ignition at all....fingers crossed

Feb 8th, 2021, 00:55	#12
Laird Scooby Premier Member Last Online: Today 08:43 Join Date: May 2012 Location: Lakenheath	Check the coil connections are correct on the LT side, the -ve goes to the contact breaker/distributor and the other connection should be on the +ve terminal of the coil. Also if you have a ballast resistor in the system, this may be playing up when hot, likewise the condensor on the distributor. You're right that if the dizzy cap was fitted with 2 leads 180 degrees out it would barely run and would backfire. May also be worth substituting a known good coil if you have one. It sounds like a heat related problem so the diaphragm in the carb is probably not the culprit, also any problem would be present all the time with a compromised diaphragm. Worth checking you have enought ATF in the carb dashpot and also that the choke mechanism is returning fully when the choke is pushed fully home. __________________ Cheers Dave Next Door to Top-Gun with a Honda CR-V & S Type Jag Volvo gone but not forgotten........

Feb 8th, 2021, 05:08	#13
142 Guy Master Member Last Online: Today 15:48 Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada	It is unclear. Did the poor operation start before the maintenance and the maintenance work was carried out as a remedy or did the poor operation emerge after the maintenance. If the poor operation predates the replacement of the distributor cap, the distributor cap clearly cannot be the cause for the problems. Assuming that the problems emerged after the maintenance, consider the following: Depends on what the mechanic means by 180 deg out of position. If the plug leads are switched 1-4 & 2-3 (180 deg out) then the engine will absolutely not run. If the plug leads are in the correct position; but, the distributor cap is 180 deg out of position resulting in the cap not seating correctly that could result in erratic operation. In my opinion two points conspire against that hypothesis. The first is that based upon my 142 I don't know how you would get the cap 180 deg out of position without it being incredibly obvious - even to a junior. The second is that if the cap is mounted incorrectly and causing the problem I would expect that the problem would be present right on start up and not get progressively worse. If they adjusted the ignition timing I might be inclined to think that perhaps they forgot to tighten the distributor adjustment bolt and that the timing started to slip during operation. A check of the static timing would quickly confirm or refute that hypothesis. The other hypothesis is that it could be gradual fuel starvation. You installed a new fuel pump. I have D jet with an electric fuel pump so I have no hands on experience with the mechanical fuel pumps; however, I believe that the replacement mechanical fuel pumps require a spacer between the flange and the block. See the application note On VP's web site https://vp-autoparts.com/en/artiklar...-fits-61-.html The spacer is not included with the pump and if not installed the pump has a miserably short life. Also, if you have serious contamination in your fuel tank you could have clogged your fuel filter resulting in starvation which may only materialize under high load. Last edited by 142 Guy; Feb 8th, 2021 at 05:23.

Feb 8th, 2021, 08:59	#17
Burdekin Chief Bodger Last Online: Yesterday 10:39 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Aberdeen	Did you replace the coil? It could be an issue when it gets hot. They aren’t expensive so worth putting in a new one. Amazon cars do a video about the 123 dizzy, any issues like this he just changes over to a 123 dizzy and sees if that cures it. Don’t want to say do this and that and you just chase your tail. When I got my B20A I did a mini overhaul of the ignition and fuel systems so new coil, leads, 123 dizzy, fuel pump, clean the carb, diaphragm and a new air filter. The air filter was horrendously dirty and blocked and made a notable difference. I thought it was worth doing just for peace of mind and it runs lovely. __________________ One day I will get rid of all of the rust.

Feb 7th, 2021, 22:00	#11
145estate 145estate Last Online: Nov 24th, 2022 18:16 Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: London	Hi, running the standard stromberg and no haven’t investigated the diaphragm yet.

Feb 8th, 2021, 08:05	#15
145estate 145estate Last Online: Nov 24th, 2022 18:16 Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: London	Hi, the bad running happened before the new dizzy cap/plugsfuel pump/air filter etc were fitted... Car ran perfect for 4 months. I first noticed problem about 3 weeks ago, car would drive fine ie start up first time and pull nicely, then after maybe 10 mins or 30 mins ( could be any length of time it would start behaving badly ie flat acceleration/surging... sometimes coming off gas helped, other times putting foot flat to the floor and giving it an Italian time up helped... then it drove fine for another 10 mins then started happening again. Last week it broke down on the motorway after driving perfectly fine for 40 or so miles... just stopped dead. Turned out the spring nodule in top of distributor cap came out inside. Hence the though that ignition could be the culprit. This Saturday before I took the car to the mechanic I put the spring nodule back in the cap and it started fine, I then noticed if I touch the two leads coming from the coil to the fixing on the distributor the engine would stall/run erratically.

Feb 8th, 2021, 08:18	#16
145estate 145estate Last Online: Nov 24th, 2022 18:16 Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: London	Part two... after making sure the two leads weren’t touching anything, I jumped in and drove around for over an hour with no problems, no erratic behaviour or surging/stalling or loss of power as before... obviously though it was still a good idea to replace stuff so brought it too mechanic, got it back yesterday and reported the running problems as stated in my first post on this subject. My mechanic informed me it looked like there’d been a short inside the distributor where one of the leads had become damaged... he therefore fixed new connections/wiring ( not completely sure what as conversation was short due to it snowing heavily and I just wanted to get it home safely) but as said before it drove poorly... it didn’t really act quiet as bad as before but seriously lacked power and was struggling really. The other thing to note is that it’s suffered from a leak on the back screen rubber, which culminates in water sitting in the well above the fuel thank, noticed an inch of water. I wondered whether water could have got in tank and somehow contaminated the fuel system?... I put through a fuel cleaner meant to clean out lines etc if contaminated whether it did the job I’m not sure.... but if it is a water/fuel problem why could I not make it happen over a period of an hour on Saturday?...

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)