VT & Rica

[pyaap]

Originally Posted by imac

Simple question?

VT have been selling their hybrid turbos + maps for quite some time, and there have been loads of people taking them up on their offer.

Out of all of these cars, only 1 or 2 have had issues? That to me suggests the individual car(s ) are at fault, and not the turbo/map ??

Surely if there was an inherent problem with the map/turbo, there would be many more instances of failure?

Am not being deliberately argumentative, just retaining a objective sense of perspective.

I would urge you to re-read the posts on T5D5 and on here. Just how many cars do you think have been fitted with this particular hybrid setup?

And can I draw you back to my earlier post if I may; why do you think Superchips paid for the repairs on Justin's car when it would have been just as easy for them to be dismissive of the situation?

[imac]

Originally Posted by pyaap

I would urge you to re-read the posts on T5D5 and on here. Just how many cars do you think have been fitted with this particular hybrid setup?

Not wishing to name names, and I haven't been on VPCUK for some considerable time, but I can think of a number from that forum off the top of my head...

I think this (forum topic, not the situation) has been blown out of proportion. We'd all like to see the truth and if this means a business was at fault then of course the problem should be rectified by them...

A civil court decides on the balance of probabilities, so if there is a strong enough case, the legal system is there for a reason!

[TangoDeltaSierra3]

The silence on VPCUK from the HLM cronies speaks volumes in my opinion.

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

Originally Posted by S60-MBS

In addition to Nuisances post..there has also been a report of Hamish taking a baseball bat to a unsatisfied customer..i think i'll wait for that particular person to make themselves known in their own time..

Any substance in this rumour??
Does anybody know??

Des. . .

[Nuisance]

I have spent the last 25 years in the tuning business, Not cars but major scale professional audio systems, Much of the comment and expectation being used as example here is just plain amateur.

My systems are far easier to destroy than an engine, and are subject to even greater thermal and mechanical stresses, and failures. Drive units are made from materials as esoteric as Titanium, Berillium, mylar, bio-celulose, carbon fibre, kevlar, and many other light weight high stress materials. The use of such materials is to squeeze out that little bit more performance from the system.

Systems can be made up of hundreds of components, all which can age and wear. Putting the wrong signal through the wrong driver can easilly destroy it. Getting the timing or phase wrong can make a system sound like a car crash. Incorrect limit setting can waste system potential, or destroy it.

Some of my systems are multi venue complexes which have to interact seemlessly, and are all controlled by networkable multi function DSP units, which are similar in purpose to an ECU.

Having been working all over the world designing, tuning, and fitting systems, I can say I am a "professional" systems engineer.

When I am called in to tune a system my responsibilities are to the job as a whole, everything from the electricity supply to the end cusomer experience.

To totally set up a system needs an understanding of all aspects of the job. Poor electrical supply can induce noises onto the system, or if of inadquate capacity can lead to output limitation, damage, or even failure. The drive units themselves can suffer from deterioration, and failure, as can all electrical components.

When I'm called in to tune the system the first thing I do is to evaluate the existing result. This alone can point to many problems. Having done this I perform a full system test, testing every connection, electronic unit, and drive unit for correct functionality. A list of failed, or faulty devices is compliled and this list is presented to the client for rectification. I usually perform the rectification, at cost to the client.

Once I am satisfied that the whole system is working to my specification, another pre-tune test is performed to make sure all connections are correct, and all devices functioning.

At this point I will commence the tune. The first thing the tune will consist of, is a chat with all concerned to find out what the aims of the job are. Having done this I can commence the main tune.
Once the desired sound is achieved, I have to set the limits This is done by experience of driver failure properties, known component specification, and understanding of what has to be achieved. Without the limits set your average user would destroy the system in the first few days of operation.
Then finally the system has to be tailored to any prescribed noise limits, either inside, or outside the building.

Most of my clients buildings can take in the region of £50,000 per night, and most systems cost in excess of £100,000 to purchase, so the posibility for severe finacial issues should a system fail is significant. More than this, some of these systems function as part of the emeregency evacuation notification system, so failure to operate correctly could kill hundreds of people. If a system failed it can also cause serious public order situations. I have seen system failures in festivals cause mini roits.

As with any complex electro-mechanical system, components will fail, and as many systems I work on are not new, ongoing component failure will occur. However, I do have a responsibilty to ensure that when I tuned the system I took all reasonable measures to identify potential faults, and remedy them as nescesary. Should any system failure occur shortly after the re-tune I have to respond immediately, and rectify the fault. At that point it is my issue, unless I can prove that it was a normal un-connected routine failure.
As I was given responsibility for performing a full diagnostics and capacity test on the system prior to the tune I am responsible for the systems ability to take the tune I performed on it. If I felt the system wasn't up to the job I had the opportunity before hand to inform the client, and present them with the options, be it reduced performance, system add-ons, or replacemnt.

Simply standing there at the end of the job, and telling my clent that the reason they've just lost £30,000 takings, and blown £7,000 worth of components is because they knew what the risks were and sh1t happens, is quite frankly laughable.

So come on guys get real! wake up and smell the coffe. A professional tuner is not the sort that stands there in front of a blown up product and shrugs and says well it was a risk. that is the realm of incompetent bungling amateurs.
You seem to be likening a professional outfit to your own "hobbyist" abilities.
If you are selling a product on the open market you have a responsibility to your customers. It has to be fit for purpose. and of markatable standard.

VT were an absolute joke!



Installing a Chipped ECU is one thing, actually selling a tuned upgrade is clearly beyond them


.

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Nuisance

Simply standing there at the end of the job, and telling my clent that the reason they've just lost £30,000 takings, and blown £7,000 worth of components is because they knew what the risks were and sh1t happens, is quite frankly laughable.

So come on guys get real! wake up and smell the coffe. A professional tuner is not the sort that stands there in front of a blown up product and shrugs and says well it was a risk. that is the realm of incompetent bungling amateurs.
You seem to be likening a professional outfit to your own "hobbyist" abilities.
If you are selling a product on the open market you have a responsibility to your customers. It has to be fit for purpose. and of markatable standard.

VT were an absolute joke!

The one thing that strikes me is the repeated reference to the companies dire customer service in the face of adversity.
If I (personally) think that I am not going to be able to do "the job" or that failure is a possible outcome, I prepare for that contingency - back-up plans etc. I will tell the client that failure is a possible outcome and they should be prepared for such a contingency.
I don't hold up my hands and say "told you so" and walk away but work towards reducing/rectifying the damage - where the preparation has come to it's own..
Sure, working with computers is different, but data loss - for instance - can kill small businesses and large equally.

So the reports of the intimidation and nastiness - and the associated covering up on VPC forums - are both saddening and angering...
No company should leave their customers up sh1t creek in the way these people have..

Just my opinion of course...

Des. . .

[foggyjames]

Ashok - I feel you've missed the point about Chris Wiita's 960. I was illustrating that an underlying fault can make itself known shortly after a performance upgrade due to the extra stress an engine finds itself under. The fact that he happened to use a lorry derived turbo has very little to do with it. He was only running 10psi, which a 15G would deliver with ease into that engine. Now clearly the two Chris' cars didn't suffer the same type of failure, but I feel the point is still valid.

Chris' (UK) car is being used as the definitive example of VT's sins and omissions here, that's why I've spoken specifically about it. I think I've had enough debates with VT staff on this forum in the past for you all to know where I stand in general, although I'm taking more of a back seat on that front now.

I have also previously stated my opinion on the AFR issue too, so I'm not shying away from that. For the record...here's what I think. The manufacturers must have verified that running ~14.7:1 AFR at high load does not have a significant effect on the lifespan of a factory-tune engine, otherwise they wouldn't dare do it. I'm sure they know better than I do. Is this a wise approach for a tuned engine? Again, I wouldn't like to say for sure, but personally, I'll be tuning down in the 12s, thanks...it's worthwhile insurance. It is worth noting that there is a difference in pre and post cat AFR. These 'lean' pulls have been measured post cat, which will register leaner than the values we normally talk about from permanently installed widebands, which would be pre-cat. I don't have any numbers to hand for how pronounced the effect is.

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VT related bit
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Getting back to the specifics of this post, I am simply concerned that people are putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5. Let me put this another way - has anyone seen an AFR plot which proves that Chris' car was running lean? If not, how can you be so sure? "A similar car was running lean" isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid. If someone posts an AFR plot with this car sitting solidly on 12:1 AFR, aren't you going to look a bit daft?

I'm not really interested in debating VT's customer service record. I only want to talk about the engineering side of things. Can we say, based on the evidence we have, "the car blew up because it was tuned badly by VT, therefore it should be repaired by VT"? No, I don't think we can. At this point, it becomes a matter of public relations - is it worth assisting with repairing the car to avoid appearing to be the "bad guy"? That is up to Hamish, and absolutely none of our business, if you ask me.

I have to start worrying about people's motives, and even how friendly this forum is, when it is taken beyond this point. To put it another way...is the evidence not damning enough, without kicking VT when they're down? Honestly, I find myself (as a very vocal critic, in the past) cringing at some of the threads we're seeing now.

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As for when to use a wideband...I would always run one on a modified turbo car...but then I like to know what's going on. I'd quite like EGT monitoring too, although I'd probably leave that for the more extreme builds. You don't need a boost gauge, either, but I bet most people have one of those, even though it's more or less redundant when you're not controlling the boost pressure. Yes, in theory, you shouldn't need one if you trust your tuner...but what if an injector goes south? What if the BCS fails? What if your fuel pressure regulator fails? To me, it's £100-200 of very worthwhile insurance against what Chris suffered.

I trust no-one takes any of this personally. I think this is a fascinating and useful topic from an engineering point of view. I'm a little saddened that I feel I'm being leapt on here, simply for being a moderate voice. I hope to be at the Crooked Billet this weekend, and see plenty of you there.

FWIW, Nuicance, you're not the only professional audio engineer on the forum. There are at least two more. Small world!

cheers

James

[pyaap]

I can see your point James and respect your opinion but I guess this debate is always going to swing in roundabouts with rebuttals from both 'sides' so its probably best just left at that.

Originally Posted by foggyjames

It is worth noting that there is a difference in pre and post cat AFR. These 'lean' pulls have been measured post cat, which will register leaner than the values we normally talk about from permanently installed widebands, which would be pre-cat. I don't have any numbers to hand for how pronounced the effect is.

Fortunately, I have experience of this and hence can comment on it. During my most recent independent dyno run, the operator placed both my Innovate XD1 (pre cat) and his Motec (post cat) displays side by side for comparison for all the power runs we did on the day. I have a 3" Ferrita downpipe and with race cat from Don at Kalmar Union. His Motec wide band displayed exactly the same readings as mine, except it was a fraction of a second later. He suggested that could be down to the 'additional' time taken for the same pocket of gas to travel the extra distance and for the electronics to register a reading.

I am sure that there will still be those who will challenge / disbelieve these findings, but it does suggest that the discrepancy in AFR readings pre and post cat on a tuned car at full chat may not be as wide as one would think. It would be nice to see if anyone else can do similar tests to see what data they get. If you would like to verify what I'm saying, I will be more than happy to send you the contact details of the RR operator in question.

Finally, on the issue Nuisance's car, why not talk to MTE when they are next here, which I think could be quite soon, about the data logs from his car. I believe that ME7 & ME9 cars are equipped with a pre-cat wideband so any competent tuner should be able to data log and record those readings with the right software, negating the need for a "tail sniffer" wide band whilst tuning. I think you will find the data logs from Nuisance's car very interesting indeed.

[Nuisance]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I have also previously stated my opinion on the AFR issue too, so I'm not shying away from that. For the record...here's what I think. The manufacturers must have verified that running ~14.7:1 AFR at high load does not have a significant effect on the lifespan of a factory-tune engine, otherwise they wouldn't dare do it. I'm sure they know better than I do. Is this a wise approach for a tuned engine? Again, I wouldn't like to say for sure, but personally, I'll be tuning down in the 12s, thanks...it's worthwhile insurance. It is worth noting that there is a difference in pre and post cat AFR. These 'lean' pulls have been measured post cat, which will register leaner than the values we normally talk about from permanently installed widebands, which would be pre-cat. I don't have any numbers to hand for how pronounced the effect is.

Not very much

As we all know the cat usess unburned hydrocarbons (fuel) to help fuel it, which alone would make the post cat AFR more lean, but it also consumes oxygen adding it to the carbon monoxide, to produce carbon dioxide, which as AFR's are calculated using O2 sensors will richen up the reading again. Typically the post cat lambda values are a fraction of a point lower.

Here is a quote from Adam.

Regards the fueling, that's very interesting because the standard map is set to run at lambda 1.0 up to approx 4000 rpm after which it richens up. So there is nothing actually wrong with this and it's how yours was indeed setup. Certainly on your dyno chart you can see it richening up to the correct AFR of approx 12.0.

So The tuner himself states that my car WAS set to run lambda 1 making all discussion about pre-post cat measurements irrelevant, and distracting from the facts. My ECU was confimed by another "expert" tuner to be attempting to achieve AFR 14.7:1 under full load at WOT. There is no question whatsoever about the lean running. As far as the tuners comments regarding richening up to the "correct" AFR of 12:1 you can see on my plot that it only achieves this at over 6000 rpm, so would never achieve this in heavy load driving conditions.


As for the dicussion about stock AFR's. The ME7 cars run many AFR's depending upon calculated EGT's and loads. One issue is that VT's dyno may not have been set to provide suficient load on the engine to get a reading from a full load map when evaluating the stock settings. The stock map will run AFR 14.7:1 when it is safe to do so, for emissions and economy. then when nescessary it runs richer maps for performance and safety. It has an abundance of maps to call upon depending on conditions, some are running maps, and others are emergency safety maps, which only run if the ECU detects a dangerous situation. Unless the tuner understands what each of these maps are, then it's possible the wrong ones may be adjusted.

EGT's are directly related to power produced as long as AFR remains constant, so what temperatures may be within safe limits on a 250 PS motor will most likely be over the safe limit on the same motor, with the same AFR, producing 350 PS. Simply stating that AFR 14.7:1 must be OK at 350 PS because it was fine at 250 PS is a very very silly comment, which shows a serious lack of understanding.


As far as I am aware Chris's engine was mapped at target AFR 12:1 I have no reason to doubt that. Chris's complaint revolves around unacceptable customer service, the tuners failure to properly check their work is within safe operating limits, and probably the tuners failure to pre-check the vehicle properly. Another issue has come to light regarding the so-called new injectors, which may be equally shocking, but we await the results of his investigations. Injector failure could well have caused the blow up. What is not in doubt is that he was treated in a shocking manner.

Many tuners have one or two cases of failed projects, just as I'm sure SW also have, but the issue here is with the attitude of the tuner to the cusomer who is not happy.
Insulting customers, threatening customers, deceivng customers, and refusing to accept ones own ethical responsibilities, is what has come crawling out of the woodwork here. It is obviously of such issue to the supplers that they have terminated their relationship with the distributor.

[Nuisance]

As for the standard of workmanship.....

Such a professional job, from a professional outfit.