240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

The integral ATF cooler can and does fail, Alan, often without external indication. This will inevitably result in cross-contamination of the coolant and ATF; an undesirable situation with potentially disastrous consequences.

That alone is a very good reason for changing the rad, but, be warned, those two little ATF pipe connections can be a real pain in the backside!

If I were you, I think that for what it costs, I would buy one, but not fit it until I had to.

Regards, John.

Thank you for that John,

I have just had a look at the two screwed connectors for the transmission - they look simple enough, I had not realised they were an issue (what is the problem with them)?

I did find (and fix) a little issue with the Royal Barge whilst tinkering this morn (I get the morns to myself from getting back from Bob's first walk until Dan emerging at about 11:00 - it is half term this week). I wondered why the electric fan had not come on (at all) when I was driving around Rutland the other day - it was a warm day and we climbed some quite steep hills. The gauge had not indicated anything untoward, but I recalled that when I first fitted the fan (I think in March, it would have been much cooler then) it would come on occasionally with the RB ticking over. The dashboard switch worked, and the fan started when I shorted the radiator switch - so I suspected the Intermotor 50050 switch.

I pulled out the switch and made a test rig with a multimeter and a pan of hot water in the kitchen - it was dead. Fortunately I'd had the foresight to procure a spare (another NOS BL part for a fiver) - had it fitted in a few minutes and all is well now. I've just been out for a 10 mile spin on mixed roads (it is 21C) , no fan during normal running, but it cuts in every minute or so when the RB is ticking over. This indicates a few things:

a. The 50050 switch is working really well in concert with the new 92C thermostat.

b. The rest of the system (head, pump, radiator, pressure cap) are working really well together in that the system didn't overheat on a warm day without the fan switch working.

I am heartened by the above. In slow time I will order another 50050 switch as a spare - just in case. I think the original had just been sitting on a shelf for 40 years and died of natural causes.

Do I need a new radiator? I suppose not, but they are so cheap I'm tempted to get one anyway.

Stay safe.

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Many thanks Dave,

The price differential to a 240 is just £4 (from the same company). I'm guessing you might thinking forward to changing to a separate cooler for the transmission some time in the future (4 speed box?). I think we should cross that bridge when we come to it I'm happy to use the standard one now and if need be splash out another £60 for the correct item if it turns out to be necessary in 2-3 year's time.

The radiator looks more or less okay to me, there are a couple of small mechanical dings here and there, mainly on the back where some clumsy mechanic (probably me) has been working, but overall it looks good from the outside.

I'm more thinking about what Clifford said: that radiators somehow seem to get a bit less efficient as they get older. When I have replaced bits around the car I noticed quite a lot of limescale build up (particularly in the old water pump - lumps of it) - nothing nefarious, just 40 years of standing in water (previous owners may well not have used EG). Bear in mind this is a pretty low mileage car - on average only 2,500 miles/year - so there may have been long periods where it hardly moved in the past. I'm wondering whether Clifford is right and the very same limescale has coated the inside of the radiator matrix and reduced its overall efficiency a bit? In household radiators limescale can reduce efficiency by 50% over time).

I've never needed to buy a radiator for a car previously, but have on bikes, where they are much more exposed (hence get more mechanical damage) and far more expensive (one tends to have to buy the OEM part as nothing else fits in the space). I must admit I'd never looked into car radiator prices, and I had it in my mind's eye that one would be £200-£300 (typical bike cost); I was amazed to see that one may be had from a UK supplier with a 5 year guarantee for 60ish quid. At that price it seems entirely sensible to change the original out for a new one and re-gain that lost efficiency.

So, that is where I'm coming from Dave: I don't know much about the RB's past, but having got it running nicely I'd like it to have a good future. I've replaced 80% of the cooling system and I'm surprised how cheap a new radiator would be, so I would certainly be happy spending 60 quid on the final 20% to make sure everything is as good as I can make it.

What do you think? Clifford's words keep ringing in my ears - and my gut feeling is to spend £60 to finish the picture now (and if I change to a 4 speed box at some later date just factor the right solution for that into the project costs then).

Long response from me- it must be early in the morn :-)

PS. I've just noticed my typo in the post above - the new radiator is only £68, not £86.

Originally Posted by john.wigley

The integral ATF cooler can and does fail, Alan, often without external indication. This will inevitably result in cross-contamination of the coolant and ATF; an undesirable situation with potentially disastrous consequences.

That alone is a very good reason for changing the rad, but, be warned, those two little ATF pipe connections can be a real pain in the backside!

If I were you, I think that for what it costs, I would buy one, but not fit it until I had to.

Regards, John.

Your answer is much as i thought it would be Alan and i noticed you emphasised the bit about the efficiency of the radiator which i had deliberately "glossed over". I had taken all of that and Cliffords comments into account but needed the last bits of information from you before i could suggest a course of action that would be reasonable.

The thing in the back of my mind the whole time is the point John made, which i've highlighted in the quote from him above.

If you're going to go to the trouble of renewing the rad now, i'd strongly suggest using one from a manual and a separate ATF cooler so you can dispense with the worry about the heat exchangers in the rad failing as John describes. It's then ready for when you update the gearbox and should be proven reliable by that point.

I used this ATF cooler on my Rover and plan on using the same one on my 760 when i do that one. Mount and connect it so the flow comes in the top and return from the bottom. If memory serves, the ATF cooler pipes are 8mm bore on yours, the Mishimoto cooler uses 10mm stubs and comes with a length of 10mm bore hose. I'd suggest using that 10mm hose, cut in half with a pair of 10 x 8mm reducers to connect to the original pipework.

Also take the trouble to mount the ATF cooler on a pair of brackets, the fixings supplied (modified cable ties) don't last that well.

My advice would be that if you're planning on replacing the radiator, get a manual one and separate ATF cooler and do the job now so no matter how long it takes to amass the AW70, Weber manifold and carb and a 4 branch manifold, the reliability of the cooling system and gearbox shouldn't be in question.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Thank you for that John,

I have just had a look at the two screwed connectors for the transmission - they look simple enough, I had not realised they were an issue (what is the problem with them)?

The problem is two-fold Alan, first the steel nuts on the pipes seize in the brass heat exchanger, second is people use 13mm spanners on them. They are 1/2" AF nuts so you can easily work out what happens!

Even on a "virgin" nut, using a 1/2" spanner (even a crows foot/pipe spanner) is no guarantee of shifting them. Electrolytic corrosion between the steel nut and brass heat exchanger usually "welds" the two together. Surgical removal is usually the default setting..............

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Your answer is much as i thought it would be Alan and i noticed you emphasised the bit about the efficiency of the radiator which i had deliberately "glossed over". I had taken all of that and Cliffords comments into account but needed the last bits of information from you before i could suggest a course of action that would be reasonable.

The thing in the back of my mind the whole time is the point John made, which i've highlighted in the quote from him above.

If you're going to go to the trouble of renewing the rad now, i'd strongly suggest using one from a manual and a separate ATF cooler so you can dispense with the worry about the heat exchangers in the rad failing as John describes. It's then ready for when you update the gearbox and should be proven reliable by that point.

I used this ATF cooler on my Rover and plan on using the same one on my 760 when i do that one. Mount and connect it so the flow comes in the top and return from the bottom. If memory serves, the ATF cooler pipes are 8mm bore on yours, the Mishimoto cooler uses 10mm stubs and comes with a length of 10mm bore hose. I'd suggest using that 10mm hose, cut in half with a pair of 10 x 8mm reducers to connect to the original pipework.

Also take the trouble to mount the ATF cooler on a pair of brackets, the fixings supplied (modified cable ties) don't last that well.

My advice would be that if you're planning on replacing the radiator, get a manual one and separate ATF cooler and do the job now so no matter how long it takes to amass the AW70, Weber manifold and carb and a 4 branch manifold, the reliability of the cooling system and gearbox shouldn't be in question.

Ah, now I see where you are coming from - and having just had a look at the current installation that makes enormous sense.

The manual radiator is actually a little cheaper (only by £4) and the same size, I suppose it should be a tiny bit more efficient in that it doesn't have to give up any space to cooling the transmission.

I like the oil cooler and what a bargain - compared to bike bits (typically they cost £150-£200, but have to fit is confined spaces). There is acres of space in front of the radiator and behind the grille on the 244, so a neat and tidy bracket would give it some environmental protection whilst plenty of airflow
at the front of the car.

I'm not sure about the 8mm to 10mm connectors though, the RB has solid metal pipes and connectors like this:



... so I'd have to cut the end off, then find some flexible pipe I could attach (with some jubilee clips I should think), then link into the cooler's 10mm pipe (or have I missed something there)?

If you see my above to John you will note that having fixed the 50050 switch this morn I'm happy all is working really well - so there is no rush to replace the radiator with a like for like item. It might make sense to take a more measured view and fit the manual item plus a transmission cooler.

Many thanks.

Stay safe,

Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The problem is two-fold Alan, first the steel nuts on the pipes seize in the brass heat exchanger, second is people use 13mm spanners on them. They are 1/2" AF nuts so you can easily work out what happens!

Even on a "virgin" nut, using a 1/2" spanner (even a crows foot/pipe spanner) is no guarantee of shifting them. Electrolytic corrosion between the steel nut and brass heat exchanger usually "welds" the two together. Surgical removal is usually the default setting..............

Roger - understood.

See my last above. I like the transmission cooler idea - mounted neatly on a bracket in the empty space behind the grille.

My only question is how those metal pipes connect into the flexible pipes for the cooler?

Stay safe.

Alan

[john.wigley]

'L.S.'s suggestion does makes a lot of sense, Alan, especially as you are contemplating long-term ownership. The first indication of this failure on my 745 was "mayonnaise" in the header tank. A new rad was the least of it. The job involved replacing all the rubber hoses and several flushes of both the coolant and the ATF before everything was back to normal. If not caught in time, that relatively small failure can destroy your transmission.

It is definitely a job to be avoided if at all possible. As you've already done much of the work involved it would be a shame for it to be wasted and require doing for a second time.

If a rad lets go, there are normally external indications - rust streaks on the rad, rise in coolant temperature, clouds of steam ... With luck, you can stop and do something; hopefully with no permanent damage having been done.

If the ATF cooler lets go, the first indication that anything is amiss is usually the "mayonnaise". I was lucky; I caught mine early and no lasting damage was done. In fact, the car went on to do a further 50 thousand miles, but most are not as fortunate.

That is why I suggested having a rad put by that you could swap out if this happened to the Royal Barge. But 'L.S.'s suggestion is definitely the way to go for a permanent / long-term solution. As you are also considering updating the transmission, doing so would not detract greatly from the Royal Barge's originality, while greatly improving it's reliability. It is the way to go!

Regards, John.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

'L.S.'s suggestion does makes a lot of sense, Alan, especially as you are contemplating long-term ownership. The first indication of this failure on my 745 was "mayonnaise" in the header tank. A new rad was the least of it. The job involved replacing all the rubber hoses and several flushes of both the coolant and the ATF before everything was back to normal. If not caught in time, that relatively small failure can destroy your transmission.

It is definitely a job to be avoided if at all possible. As you've already done much of the work involved it would be a shame for it to be wasted and require doing for a second time.

If a rad lets go, there are normally external indications - rust streaks on the rad, rise in coolant temperature, clouds of steam ... With luck, you can stop and do something; hopefully with no permanent damage having been done.

If the ATF cooler lets go, the first indication that anything is amiss is usually the "mayonnaise". I was lucky; I caught mine early and no lasting damage was done. In fact, the car went on to do a further 50 thousand miles, but most are not as fortunate.

That is why I suggested having a rad put by that you could swap out if this happened to the Royal Barge. But 'L.S.'s suggestion is definitely the way to go for a permanent / long-term solution. As you are also considering updating the transmission, doing so would not detract greatly from the Royal Barge's originality, while greatly improving it's reliability. It is the way to go!

Regards, John.

Hi John,

Thank you for that.

I strongly agree that Dave's idea is an excellent one that would subtly improve the Royal Barge but would be almost invisible.

I could fit a new radiator or a manual car (£62 from the same supplier as the auto one), the ATF cooler LS suggested at £40, manufacture a neat alloy bracket to fit in that huge space in between the grille and the radiator so no one would know there had been a change.

I think that is what I'll do next with the RB - £100 well spent and entirely in keeping with the car's ethos.

Stay safe.

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

I'm not sure about the 8mm to 10mm connectors though, the RB has solid metal pipes and connectors like this:



... so I'd have to cut the end off, then find some flexible pipe I could attach (with some jubilee clips I should think), then link into the cooler's 10mm pipe (or have I missed something there)?

The Mishimoto cooler comes with flexible 10mm rubber hose (and Jubilee clips but i used my own) and yes, you do have to cut the ends off the OE pipes to be able to join them. Further back towards the gearbox you'll find the pipes are rubber, it's only the radiator end that they are metal. In fact, if you investigate the gearbox ends, you might see it as prudent to renew the rubber pipework from the gearbox to the cooler.

Forgot to mention the thermoswitch in my last post - good work! Chances are it's been sat in the stock room for donkeys and gave up the ghost all too easily. Might be under warranty though which might be worth a try?

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

'L.S.'s suggestion does makes a lot of sense, Alan, especially as you are contemplating long-term ownership. The first indication of this failure on my 745 was "mayonnaise" in the header tank. A new rad was the least of it. The job involved replacing all the rubber hoses and several flushes of both the coolant and the ATF before everything was back to normal. If not caught in time, that relatively small failure can destroy your transmission.

It is definitely a job to be avoided if at all possible. As you've already done much of the work involved it would be a shame for it to be wasted and require doing for a second time.

If a rad lets go, there are normally external indications - rust streaks on the rad, rise in coolant temperature, clouds of steam ... With luck, you can stop and do something; hopefully with no permanent damage having been done.

If the ATF cooler lets go, the first indication that anything is amiss is usually the "mayonnaise". I was lucky; I caught mine early and no lasting damage was done. In fact, the car went on to do a further 50 thousand miles, but most are not as fortunate.

That is why I suggested having a rad put by that you could swap out if this happened to the Royal Barge. But 'L.S.'s suggestion is definitely the way to go for a permanent / long-term solution. As you are also considering updating the transmission, doing so would not detract greatly from the Royal Barge's originality, while greatly improving it's reliability. It is the way to go!

Regards, John.

On the one i had where the ATF heat exchanger developed a leak, the first indication was loss of forward drive. Fortunately for me, i was only about 1/2-3/4 mile from home but reversing that distance on a fast moving A-road was tricky! Even in a car that would do 50mph in reverse!
There were no visible signs so i assumed (wrongly) that the gearbox had died from previous misuse/abuse and i was just unlucky. Three months later when the replacement box went the same way in a similar place (relatively speaking despite the fact i'd moved) i found some evidence of what had caused it.
As there were no replacement gearboxes or radiators available in my price range, i had to sell the car as part of a p/x deal against a Vauxhall Shuvvit. Took me half an hour more each way to get to and from work in that, probably something to do with the loss of 100bhp, 2200cc, 4 cylinders and gaining a clutch!

If i still had the car that the gearbox died on, it would be worth somewhere around £12-15k now.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The Mishimoto cooler comes with flexible 10mm rubber hose (and Jubilee clips but i used my own) and yes, you do have to cut the ends off the OE pipes to be able to join them. Further back towards the gearbox you'll find the pipes are rubber, it's only the radiator end that they are metal. In fact, if you investigate the gearbox ends, you might see it as prudent to renew the rubber pipework from the gearbox to the cooler.

Forgot to mention the thermoswitch in my last post - good work! Chances are it's been sat in the stock room for donkeys and gave up the ghost all too easily. Might be under warranty though which might be worth a try?

I've just checked the metal pipes and they are 8mm OD. It like to keep them so the installation looks as near to the original as possible, so I'm thinking I could cut the ends off neatly with a plumber's pipe cutter, then jubilee clip some flexible pipe over them.

Is the flexible pipe that comes with the kit 10mm ID or OD? If it is OD it might just stretch snugly over the existing 8mm pipes. If ID I'd need some sort of reducer (I think the one you showed is for flexible to flexible pipe).

The size is just about right - there is about 500mm transverse space and plenty of height behind the grille without getting in the way of the horns.

I'll rough this out this eve and maybe get the bits ordered.

Stay safe,

Alan