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Is it a myth or do CNG V70 Volvo really exist?!

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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 13:39   #21
CNGBiFuel
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I'm not sure I understand your post.
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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 14:12   #22
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What I mean is that the North Sea reserves of natural gas from which lpg is derived are massive. These reserves will not run out in a very long time.

When we pump/extract wet natural gas from underneath the sea floor, you will not just find isolated methane. Its a mixture of light weight hydrocarbons. Natural gas reserves contain ethene, propane, butane and pentane, although the majority is methane.

In addition light weight hydrocarbons can be cracked from crude oil.

So in my opinion going CNG(methane) because we are not self sufficient with lpg (propane) does not make sense to me. Atleast not in a very long time.

English is not my first language, but I hope you understand.

Last edited by volvobaggen; Sep 7th, 2012 at 14:19.
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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 15:03   #23
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Sorry I should have made it clearer what I meant by dwindling oil reserves , I was thinking about relative to the 100 year supply of shale gas that the US believes its got , China apparently has even more and even the UK has some . I know people dont like fracking near their houses which is understandable but I think 50 years from now we could all be running on fracked gas , wont matter for me as I will have popped my cloggs but I can imagine my kids driving on it .
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Old Sep 7th, 2012, 23:10   #24
CNGBiFuel
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Ah, I see my error. I thought LPG was an oil by-product, produced when you refine oil. So not created from Natural Gas. But LPG is from Natural Gas. Good.

So when I compress Natural gas I get LPG. Not CNG? I'm not convinced. Are you sure?

I'll google it.
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Old Sep 8th, 2012, 02:38   #25
volvobaggen
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Well, its not that simple.

Natural gas found in oil fields is a mixture of light weight hydrocarbons often found a reservoir with heavier hydrocarbons when you drill for it out in the north sea.

Natural gas isn´t just methane, but methane is the lightest of the hydrocarbons and the most plentiful and dominating of the light weight hydrocarbons(somewhere in the range of 70-90% volume of gas)

This is very simplified:

Natural gas is a blend of:

Methane is CH4, one carbon atom and four hydrogen atoms. (70-90%)
Ethane is C2H6, has two carbon atoms and therefore heavier than methane.
Propane is C3H8, has three carbon atoms etc
Butane is C4H10
Pentane C5H12
Hexane C6H14
Benzene C6H6
Not all molecules are listed.

These are liquid in the high pressure pockets underground, but gaseous at atmospheric pressure. The higher the carbon number, the more their boiling point goes up.

For instance, this is why you guys in England and we here in Norway only get propane as autogas year around that boils at -42C. If we blend in butane which boils -0,5 C, the boiling point goes up and there would be problems with the vaporizer on a really cold winters day.

Petrol is a blend of:

Butane C4H10
Pentane C5H12
Hexane C6H14
Heptane C7H16
Octane C8H18
Nonane C9H20

Diesel-fuel is a blend of alkenes (these same hydrocarbons) with carbon numbers from 10-22 carbon atoms.


My point is that when we drill for hydrocarbons, depending on the nature on the reservoir, we always get a blend of the different hydrocarbons. Often you find find oil and natural gases together. Sometimes you find natural gas without oil etc.

AT the drill head and at the refineries you separate the hydrocarbons. Methane is separated, ethane is separated, propane separated, and it goes on and on.

If you compress natural gas you get CNG. If you compress and freeze natural gas you get LNG. Both CNG and LNG are not pure methane, you will find some ethane and propane in there. LPG will become liquified only by relatively low preassure alone.

LPG can be "polluted" by so called "bad gas" in which longer chains of hydrocarbons from about 20 carbonatoms (C20) is suspended in the LPG. From this carbon range, hydrocarbons form solids like paraffin wax that dont evaporate in the vaporizer.

My point is therefore that the production of methane is linked to the production of propane, petrol and diesel oil etc. LPG as we use it today is not a biproduct from the refinery, it is a biproduct of drilling and is separated at the refinery, just as methane is separated. Before these petroleum gases had no market and were burned off.

Also, by cracking longer chains of hydrocarbons, propane/buthane can easily be produced at the refinery if needed in the same ways cracking is used to produce petrol and diesel fuel.


Landfill and and methane production from bacteria is another story.

Last edited by volvobaggen; Sep 8th, 2012 at 03:05.
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Old Sep 8th, 2012, 15:11   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volvobaggen View Post
If we blend in butane which boils -0,5 C, the boiling point goes up and there would be problems with the vaporizer on a really cold winters day.
Hm, I cant edit my previous post anymore.

I see I did a mistake here. Vaporizer would have no problems, but the tank pressure would drop in low temperatures causing delivery problems to the vaporizer.
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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 09:32   #27
CNGBiFuel
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Thanks for that explanation, it must have taken you time to write, so I thank you. I will admit I had to read it twice to absorb exactly what you're saying. Now I 'get' it.

I had wondered why LPG freezes when it does, and how it works in colder climes. We had a cold snap, here in the UK last year, minus 8, (which was probably a bit like a sunny day in Norway). The LPG here did not work, a Norwegian would have been out sun-bathing, but I was in trouble, lines frozen, you'd have called me a big baby, and told me to get out the sun-lotion, but I was stuck miles from home.

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Old Sep 10th, 2012, 18:05   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGBiFuel View Post
Thanks for that explanation, it must have taken you time to write, so I thank you. I will admit I had to read it twice to absorb exactly what you're saying. Now I 'get' it.

I had wondered why LPG freezes when it does, and how it works in colder climes. We had a cold snap, here in the UK last year, minus 8, (which was probably a bit like a sunny day in Norway). The LPG here did not work, a Norwegian would have been out sun-bathing, but I was in trouble, lines frozen, you'd have called me a big baby, and told me to get out the sun-lotion, but I was stuck miles from home.
Interesting. I've never had a problem with LPG even when the temp has been minus double figures degrees C, and the brass monkeys hanging on tight to all they hold dear!

The only thing I have noticed is that if you fill up on a really cold day then you can get more gas in the tank!

Cheers

Jack
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Old Sep 11th, 2012, 20:56   #29
atnas666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capt jack View Post
Interesting. I've never had a problem with LPG even when the temp has been minus double figures degrees C, and the brass monkeys hanging on tight to all they hold dear!

The only thing I have noticed is that if you fill up on a really cold day then you can get more gas in the tank!

Cheers

Jack

Bring on the cold weather i want more gas in my tank lol
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Old Sep 19th, 2012, 10:37   #30
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To clarify, it wasn't the vehicles that had issues, it ws the filling stations. All had frozen pipes, exactly how or why minus 8 did that I really don't understand after all, 0 degs or minus 8, should not make a differnce, well... I'd have thought.

I never had my homefill at below freezing, we will see.

Last edited by CNGBiFuel; Sep 19th, 2012 at 10:48.
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