Lexus LS400 vs Volvo S70 - no not a road race thing...

[liuleichan]

I've been recently tempted with an LS400 (96 car, 95-98 MY) - dunno whether I'll change for it, yet.

I had a test drive, recently, and thought I'd post my comparison.

My current car is (as some may remember) an 98 S70 2.5 10v SE auto. Not exactly an obvious peer comparison with an LS400 (perhaps an S90 or S80 might be more close - but then the LS400 (and later LS430) is meant to compete with the top German models (S class, 7 series, and A8).

The spec of the LS400 (of the model year I'm considering) is a 4.0 V8, 32 valve, RWD, pushing out a little over 260 bhp, and a WALL of torque. It stands to reason that cars of this type aren't necesasrily tuned for peak power - after all, 260-odd bhp isn't necessarily that impressive for a 4.0 V8, it's more about that elusive "waftability" in cars of this type.

Leather everywhere, electric everything - all perfectly working. *Huge* inside - not that an S70 is a small car, but the LS400 is cavernous. Creature comforts include dual-zone, true-digital climate control - very impressive, practically every option you could think of. Apparently it's intelligent, and looks at air quality, and can automatically block out outside air for a while if it thinks it's a bit contaminated (ie fumes, presumably).

Front seats are electrically operated, including the head restraints, the lumbar support and the seatbelt height - and along with the mirror positions, has two memories for the driving seat.

Heated seats all round (including the rears). Loads of space in the back, and the rear windows descend in a funky manner - as they get towards the bottom of the movement, the front of the window sorta angles down a bit more.

Rear-view mirror is auto-dimming, I think the door mirrors are meant to be photochromatic or something like that.

Default sound system is meant to be truly awesome, tape deck head unit, and 6 CD autochanger in the upper glove compartment. Didn't play with it much, but apparently the use of the arial (height) is meant to be intelligent.

4 speed auto, with normal and sport / power setting - didn't see anything obvious (like in the Volvos) for winter - whether it automatically does it, or whether you simply choose a higher gear to start, I'm not sure. The gear lever uses a more traditional "dog leg" path, as opposed to the straight forward and back on the Volvo one.

The foot-operated parking brake (hand release from the dash) took some getting used to.

Traction control - although didn't notice it kicking in, when I drove it, although I doubt I pushed the car hard enough to do so. There didn't appear to be any switch to turn it off - I know on some models there is, but presumably that's a market thing - maybe the UK cars don't have a disable switch.

Not exactly gadget city - just sort of opulence and quality, although there are some sort of titilation details - when you put the key in, the steering wheel comes down to a more normal position - and move back up, when you take the key out.

The dials are truly funky - then needles seem to light up / glow.

The engine is very quiet - at all times. Spookily so. At tickover it is hard to hear.

It drives quite effortlessly. It seems to gain speed without fuss, and much noticing. And if pushed - especially if putting the gearbox in sport / power mode (and whatever else that button does - presumably some interpretation of the throttle, too) is truly rapid.

The cruise control is a slightly different type of control than that on the S70. It's more a smaller, stubby type lever. I've encountered this type of control when I drove a late model Toyota Previa as a hire car. The speed control is pretty rock solid - although I didn't really go up / down any inclines - just a short 10 miles, or so, on the motorway.

The adding and detracting speed controls seem to work very well, but I struggled a bit with the resume mode - probably didn't understand something well enough, rather than anything else. You can cancel with the stalk, too, rather than just turning it off - like the Volvo system.

As cruise control is something I make a lot of use of, it was rather an important feature for me to test and compare - because I've found the Volvo one very good. I'd say the speed maintain is just ever so slightly more rock solid in the LS400 - it's pretty good for that in the Volvo, you can notice a slight 1 or 2 mph brief variance (mainly due to inclines) - I didn't notice any of that in the LS400.

The road holding and handling of the LS400 were quite impressive for such a big car. This isn't the true drivers car for blatting 'round country lanes, or cornering on the edge of adhesion. It's a big, heavy, powerful cruiser. But very composed. Behind the wheel, I wasn't aware I was driving such a big car.

In fact, for such a big car, it handled suprisingly sprightly, and felt very composed around roundabouts (I'm thinking the bigger, faster roundabouts you'd find at motorway junctions).

The one thing that I did seem to be aware of - more so in the LS400 - was perhaps the sensation that it was quite a wide car, and that the front corners seemed more pointy than those in the S70.

Composed, serene, effortless is how I'd describe it. The interior (and the exterior for that matter) are pretty much flawless. For a car that's two years older than mine, with 8k miles more on the clock (my S70 has 122k miles on the clock, the LS400 had 130k), the interior was very impressive. No rattles, squeaks, or any funny noises from the inside or mechanicals when driving. It felt tight and new to drive and operate - nothing sloppy or loose. I feel my S70 still feels very fresh and tight - even at it's age and mileage, but the LS400 was clearly up a level on this score.

Running costs (well servicing, anyways) seem quite reasonable. There's not a Lexus dealers in the town I live (the nearest is probably around 20-30 miles away). But the local Toyota dealers service Lexus, and the price for the services seems quite reasonable. In fact the prices of the Lexus services seemed more akin to the quite reasonable VW dealer service prices I used to pay when owning Passats. The Toyota dealer told me that a type A service would probably be around the £110 mark, and a tybe B probably around the £180-190 mark. And an oil and filter change (just on it's own - as, say, an interim thing - around £60 - not bad for a big V8).

I guess parts and consummables may be more for an LS400 than an S70, but at least the servicing costs seem reasonable, compared with the prices I've been quoted for Volvo dealer servicing. Which is probably just as well, as I couldn't seem to find any local independant specialists for Lexus cars.

Fuel economy isn't as bad as you might think - bearing in mind my S70 2.5 auto isn't exactly frugal.

Haven't made my mind up, yet, whether to change - but one thing I was slightly suprised at - the LS400 is clearly a superior car to my S70, on quality, comfort and performance grounds. The S70 probably handles slightly better, from a sporty perspective - although the whole RWD vs FWD thing may cloud that slightly. But as I said, the one suprising thing about driving the LS400 and comparing it with my S70, was when driving away, appreciating the opulence, perfection and serenity of the LS400 - but then realising what a great car the S70 is.

Sure, it's not a true peer of the LS400, but for all the things that are important to me as a driver, the one thing that the comparison has highlighted for me is how good the S70 is - perhaps suprising, I wasn't quite expecting that. I was expecting the thought that I simply couldn't live without the LS400 after driving it - and given the arbitrary choice, would no doubt opt for it - but IMO it went to show how good the S70 is, as a car.

Lei Chan

Lexus/Toyota may think that these cars are built to compete with 7-series BMWs, S-class Mercedes and Audi A8s, but they are not. These cars are built to compete with Lincoln Town Cars, Cadillac Sevilles and the Chrysler Concorde, i.e. the big, comfy American cruisers. That is where their market is, not in Europe. Ok, we may like them and the reason is that they take the best of American cars, i.e. comfort, luxury, size and this torque factor you mention and the best of Japanese cars, i.e. build quality, customer service, reliability and economy and make one hell of a car. The Lexus LS400 is a wonderful car, I adore it, but I would never, ever buy one. Why? Because it lacks that thing that in my opinion is the best of European cars, soul. My Volvo has a soul, my Volvo is my friend, my Volvo likes me and I like it. If I leave it on the drive for two weeks, it gets lonely, it misses me, and I can tell. A Lexus could not care less if I dumped it in a waterfilled quarry. Does it make sense to you? No? Then go for the Lexus, but if you see what I mean, even ever so slightly, stick to Volvos.

George

Anglo-Swede resident near Leuven in Belgium

'87 745 GLE Turbo Diesel Intercooler (D24TIC/M46, 200k)
'88 745 Turbo Intercooler (B230FT/M46, 270k)
'88 745 GL (B200E/M47, 200k)
'89 440 GL (B18K, 90k)

[Dan F]

Goddamn, that is an awful lot of doohickeys to go wrong!!

Does it have an electric arse scratcher as well?

Quality doesn't necessarily mean having an electric motor in it.

All that stuff sounds great but will it be so when the novelty has worn off and the service bills and failing motors set in?

I have a connection with my Volvo (as George mentions) and I have never had that sort of 'feel' from any other car I have had.

That is the 'Je ne c'est quoi' of Volvo ownership that just puts it head and shoulders above any other kind of car.
Quite how Japanese firms make their cars so good, yet, so soul-less is an interesting question.

Later,
Dan.

[liuleichan]

>Goddamn, that is an awful lot of doohickeys to go wrong!!

Of course - but nobody appears to have a better reputation for such stuff, than the Japanese auto manufacturers.

But as I said - it's not a gadget-mobile. Some of the later LSs have even more (doors close the final bit for you, boot closes - that sort of thing).

>Does it have an electric arse scratcher as well?
>
>Quality doesn't necessarily mean having an electric motor in
>it.

No - and I didn't (nor wouldn't necessarily) suggest it does. The quality is apparent from the tactile use of the controls, and the materials used (eg the leather seats, the headlining, the sound system - you get the idea).

>All that stuff sounds great but will it be so when the
>novelty has worn off and the service bills and failing motors
>set in?

Given the sort of driving I do, I'm hardly likely to buy a / this car, merely for the gadgets.

And in reality, it doesn't have that many more than my S70. The question would come down to which is likely to have best long-term longevity and reliability.

>I have a connection with my Volvo (as George mentions) and I
>have never had that sort of 'feel' from any other car I have
>had.

Each to their own. I'll not criticise what it is that draws people to the various marques - and if you notice, I'm hardly criticising the Volvo brand - far from it, I'm praising it - and to be fair, I currently own and drive one.

I spend around 2.5 hours a weekday commuting in my car. I want a nice environment to be in, some creature comforts (ideally climate control, good stereo), and a certain serene-nous (that a real word?).

That's what I want, personally, from a car - a relaxing, comfortable environment, and one that performs reasonably well. I'm not particularly bothered about whether it will corner particularly quickly, down country lanes, or any presumed "character" it may have. That's my sort of criteria for my choice of car - no better nor worse than anybody else's, merely mine.

I've been pleased with my S70 - it's represented good value for money, is well made, and have been pretty darned reliable. But all other things being equal, would I choose it over an LS400? Hell no - Volvo don't pay me for that sort of loyalty - and by the same token, neither do Lexus. Merely that for *my* individual criteria, the LS400 is a superior car - only understandable, really though - the original price of it was a shade under 50k, whereas my S70 would probably have been around the 22k mark.

>That is the 'Je ne c'est quoi' of Volvo ownership that just
>puts it head and shoulders above any other kind of car.
>Quite how Japanese firms make their cars so good, yet, so
>soul-less is an interesting question.

"soul" is one of those things, though, that everybody seems happy to quote, but you'll find any common definition is as elusive and as vague as any other spiritual concept.

I bought my Volvo to drive - and for that purpose, it has been great value for money. I don't plan on any brand-aligning, loyalty or anything else like that, as per my car choice, though.

Lei Chan

[liuleichan]

>Lexus/Toyota may think that these cars are built to compete
>with 7-series BMWs, S-class Mercedes and Audi A8s,

Quite reasonably - look at the size of car, engine size, equipment, and positioning.

I think it's fair to say, that in the last decade, Lexus have brought something to the table that's cause the German premier car marques to take note.

>but they
>are not. These cars are built to compete with Lincoln Town
>Cars, Cadillac Sevilles and the Chrysler Concorde, i.e. the
>big, comfy American cruisers.

The US market is the biggest single market in the world. Where do you imagine the bulk of BMW, Mercedes or Audis are sold? Which cars would you imagine that BMW, Mercedes and Audi position their flaghips with, in the US?

>That is where their market is,
>not in Europe.

Of course - for all these brands, their biggest market is the US.

>Ok, we may like them and the reason is that
>they take the best of American cars, i.e. comfort, luxury,
>size and this torque factor you mention and the best of
>Japanese cars, i.e. build quality, customer service,
>reliability and economy and make one hell of a car. The Lexus
>LS400 is a wonderful car, I adore it, but I would never, ever
>buy one.

That's your individual choice - and there's nothing wrong with that - likewise for my choice (which I haven't yet made ;-)).

>Why? Because it lacks that thing that in my opinion
>is the best of European cars, soul.

Define "soul" ;-)

>My Volvo has a soul, my
>Volvo is my friend, my Volvo likes me and I like it. If I
>leave it on the drive for two weeks, it gets lonely, it misses
>me, and I can tell.

It's an inanimate object, though ;-)

Don't get me wrong - some people adore "character" in their choice of car. And car ownership is a quite individual thing.

My intention of posting my original message, wasn't to subtley put the back up, of hardened, loyal Volvo owners - far from it, although it would appear that a certain degree of that is hinted, here in the replies. It was actually to post a real world comparison, and make the point that the S70 fairs well and compares (although loses) a lot better than I thought it would. In driving away in my S70, my thoughts were "What a great car the S70 is..."

I'm not trying to demean the S70 - because in fairness, it's not a true peer comparison - this is a pracitcally different class of car to compare it with.

>A Lexus could not care less if I dumped it
>in a waterfilled quarry. Does it make sense to you? No? Then
>go for the Lexus, but if you see what I mean, even ever so
>slightly, stick to Volvos.

I guess each individual has their own criteria and their own rationale for what motivates their car preferences. What draws me to the bigger Lexus (or should I say "Lexi" in true Partridge style ;-)) is cars with German-marque flagship equivalency, but with the reliability and longevity of the Japanese car makers, at a very reasonable price-tag. Not any pretentiousness, or brand snobbery. For me, it's function over form - however, my personal definition of "function" would include some degree of quality, however vague a description that might be.

Lei Chan