Engine 850: B5234TR/2.3/20v/T5R: Dyno Run 850R 1996 with RICA

[t5frankie]

Originally Posted by s60ben

Difference is, I'm prepared to listen, but more importantly to learn - and to do my own research.




I didn't say anything other than Frankie was wrong, and then attempted to provide simple understandable guidance.

He even said he had similar figures from his own car on a Maha dyno... but chooses to believe the "Random Number Generator" at HLM, despite the fact we've proven that the MAHA dynos are accurate and repeatable at a number of different locations on different days.

I should also point out that the figures given by the OP's dyno chart are "uncorrected".




FWIW - The only reason the OP thought there may have been something wrong, was due to the bull being banded about with the Dyno figures spouted, by someone who clearly has no knowledge.



I'm not ashamed as to the "Status of my membership" - Unlike some, I don't live my life by how many thanks there are, nor what the silly post figures or what the silly membership indicator says, nor do I "post whore" to get there.

I gotta love the "it's all so clicky on here" comments - I've never found that, but what I do find is a large number of people with their heads stuck up their a$$es. I'm pleased you like the S40 site, I personally prefer to read generally technical posts, without the BS stuff, like "what you up to today" or "I've just had cornflakes for my breakfast". I also prefer the sites where you can put a topic in the wrong section, and not receive a warning for it.

Each to their own, and I fully appreciate that those of younger years like different sites to those of advanced years. What I do find amusing, is those that choose to post whilst adding nothing to the discussion, but that decide they can be critical of others who are adding information to the discussion, without adding any of their own, ie. purely a typical old mans moaning. I've noticed the older the member, the more they appear to regress and prefer kindergarten sites.

Maybe I should have been less friendly to the OP, after all I've seen him locally a number of times, exchanged PM's tonight, and he'll now know who it is when we see each other

My point, is that the OP has come to say XYZ, and then someone jumps up and down saying it's not making adequate power - based on their mistaken understanding of the Dyno graph, and Dyno's in general <and let's not mention physics>.

I'm actually attempting to show the OP that there's potentially absolutely nothing wrong with the power he's creating, and to inform and educate the main person saying there's a problem...

If you have a problem with that - tough - enjoy your s40 site.

whats with the jump on the bandwagon slagging hlm off again?, i have seen plenty of bog standard motors on the rollers there hitting the manufacturers figures bang on or very near to, just cos hamish dont kiss everyones arse he gets a slagging off lol, and i respect him for being like that he tells you how it is. and also it seems vpc is a much friendlier forum than here. How did the op get a bhp reading if his car is an auto from a dyno?

[Jardon]

Originally Posted by t5frankie

whats with the jump on the bandwagon slagging hlm off again?, i have seen plenty of bog standard motors on the rollers there hitting the manufacturers figures bang on or very near to, just cos hamish dont kiss everyones arse he gets a slagging off lol, and i respect him for being like that he tells you how it is. and also it seems vpc is a much friendlier forum than here. How did the op get a bhp reading if his car is an auto from a dyno?

Not getting involved with any dyno operator or forum bashing here. I haven't posted on here for ages but followed the link from my usual haunt.

Frankie - the OP got a BHP figure because MAHA measure tyre drag. I don't know whether this is because transmission drag is very low by comparison - anybody have a suggestion? I notice that on some dynos they coast in neutral with no transmission drag and other others just dip the clutch and leave it in gear. I suspect tyre drag is higher than transmission drag but thats just a hunch - it will certainly be quite high on a twin roller set up like a MAHA. All other dynos measure something as drag too - your results at MAHA and HLM are both valid if taken in context and Bens post should help explain the differences. They should both arrive at the same flywheel figure even if the wheel figures are wildly different - again refer to Bens post as it makes clear why wheel figures are not the holy grail. HLM use a very large roller with less rolling resistance than twin smaller rollers so tyre drag WILL be different.

Comparing WHP figures between any dynos is fundamentally flawed unless the dyno is identical and all other conditions are identical. Neither MAHA or HLM is wrong and for tuning purposes where you might check for power changes after a new modification either is reliable - stick with one dyno and keep anything that may effect drag constant eg. tyre type and tyre pressure.

MAHA have a good reputation with car manufacturers because their fly figures compare well with engine dyno results - to rubbish them in light of the above and Bens post is misleading. I acknowledge that HLMs dyno yields accurate fly figures too so no bias intended.

[t5frankie]

Originally Posted by Jardon

Not getting involved with any dyno operator or forum bashing here. I haven't posted on here for ages but followed the link from my usual haunt.

Frankie - the OP got a BHP figure because MAHA measure tyre drag. I don't know whether this is because transmission drag is very low by comparison - anybody have a suggestion? I notice that on some dynos they coast in neutral with no transmission drag and other others just dip the clutch and leave it in gear. I suspect tyre drag is higher than transmission drag but thats just a hunch - it will certainly be quite high on a twin roller set up like a MAHA. All other dynos measure something as drag too - your results at MAHA and HLM are both valid if taken in context and Bens post should help explain the differences. They should both arrive at the same flywheel figure even if the wheel figures are wildly different - again refer to Bens post as it makes clear why wheel figures are not the holy grail. HLM use a very large roller with less rolling resistance than twin smaller rollers so tyre drag WILL be different.

Comparing WHP figures between any dynos is fundamentally flawed unless the dyno is identical and all other conditions are identical. Neither MAHA or HLM is wrong and for tuning purposes where you might check for power changes after a new modification either is reliable - stick with one dyno and keep anything that may effect drag constant eg. tyre type and tyre pressure.

MAHA have a good reputation with car manufacturers because their fly figures compare well with engine dyno results - to rubbish them in light of the above and Bens post is misleading. I acknowledge that HLMs dyno yields accurate fly figures too so no bias intended.

thanks for taking the time to write that without bashing anyone, i was under the impression as the wheels were on the rollers that it was that that was the accurate figure, hlm has a single roller so would assume that this would be more accurate for whp purposes, i seem to remember that my maha figure of 198whp was done in 5th gear, but why give out them sort of results when they are so far off the mark?

[Jardon]

Originally Posted by t5frankie

thanks for taking the time to write that without bashing anyone, i was under the impression as the wheels were on the rollers that it was that that was the accurate figure, hlm has a single roller so would assume that this would be more accurate for whp purposes, i seem to remember that my maha figure of 198whp was done in 5th gear, but why give out them sort of results when they are so far off the mark?

I would assume nothing as that's where the confusion starts - you/we need to think about this logically and no two dynos will give the same WHP figure if they have different sized rollers etc. My analogy would be that 2+3=5 and 1+4=5 ie: neither is wrong and there are two or more ways of getting the same answer. I accept it is human to favour a dyno on the basis of trust, etc but you have to look at the maths/physics before saying one or the other is more accurate. What this should tell us is that the yanks are "wrong" when they harp on about WHP - no two dynos will give the same power but they should ALL give the same flywheel figures if the prevailing conditions are identical.

Gear choice - it affects wheel power but not flywheel power if drag is being measured accurately. The only comparable constant is fly power. It would be interesting at the next dyno day (wherever that may be) to run a few cars in 3rd 4th 5th (6th) and see what happens - the engine power isn't altering but drag will change hugely with the varying wheel speed. If the dyno is accurate at measuring anything it should show equal fly power every time with very different WHP.

Hope this helps.

[gavT5]

Originally Posted by t5frankie

thanks for taking the time to write that without bashing anyone, i was under the impression as the wheels were on the rollers that it was that that was the accurate figure, hlm has a single roller so would assume that this would be more accurate for whp purposes, i seem to remember that my maha figure of 198whp was done in 5th gear, but why give out them sort of results when they are so far off the mark?

i was of the understanding that power runs should be done in the closest gear ratio to 1:1, this is usually fourth gear on a 5spd volvo box? my car is always run in 4th. just adding my opinion, (please note that's all it is lol)

[Jardon]

Originally Posted by gavT5

i was of the understanding that power runs should be done in the closest gear ratio to 1:1, this is usually fourth gear on a 5spd volvo box? my car is always run in 4th. just adding my opinion, (please note that's all it is lol)

I don't know the answer to that but you are right that most dyno operators use 4th on a 5 speed car. Perhaps the 1:1 means that transmission losses are easier to calculate?

In theory it should make no difference because drag is drag and will be measured as such on dyno. Thinking it through - for example if you ran in 3rd in my car and reached 90mph then 6th and reached 180mph then the tyre drag loss added to the 6th gear run would be much higher than the that added to the 3rd gear run. However torque at the wheels is much higher in 3rd than 6th so you can see how you end up with the same result when you add high wheel power to low drag (3rd) as low wheel power to high drag (6th).

I suspect that it made more difference to run in 4th years ago when dynos were inertial drums only and calculations of drag were in fact guesstimates. Also, in practical terms it may be safer to run in a gear that isn't spinning the roller at ~200 mph (my car would at 7000rpm) while 3rd would result in tyre slip ie: compromise of speed and traction.

[s60ben]

Originally Posted by t5frankie

whats with the jump on the bandwagon slagging hlm off again?, i have seen plenty of bog standard motors on the rollers there hitting the manufacturers figures bang on or very near to, just cos hamish dont kiss everyones arse he gets a slagging off lol, and i respect him for being like that he tells you how it is. and also it seems vpc is a much friendlier forum than here. How did the op get a bhp reading if his car is an auto from a dyno?

I've never expected Hamish to as you so quaintly put it, Kiss my Ass.

I'm afraid, I respect fully those who "tell it as it is" - however, what I don't respect is that the guy has ripped off a great many people, and is generally full of pi$$ and wind.

Not only that, but let's not forget the crap that he spewed forth about Water Injection, or the fact he's banned from the VOC forums - for very good reason.

Put it like this, he's probably an adequate mechanic - but he's playing at the rest of it, and doesn't even attempt to understand things that he "knows" won't work

As for VPC being friendlier - I'm sure it is, that's clearly why Emlyn upped and left...

[t5frankie]

Originally Posted by s60ben

I've never expected Hamish to as you so quaintly put it, Kiss my Ass.

I'm afraid, I respect fully those who "tell it as it is" - however, what I don't respect is that the guy has ripped off a great many people, and is generally full of pi$$ and wind.

Not only that, but let's not forget the crap that he spewed forth about Water Injection, or the fact he's banned from the VOC forums - for very good reason.

Put it like this, he's probably an adequate mechanic - but he's playing at the rest of it, and doesn't even attempt to understand things that he "knows" won't work

As for VPC being friendlier - I'm sure it is, that's clearly why Emlyn upped and left...

Emlyn is a friend of mine and hasnt left anywhere, he became a mod then felt it wasnt for him, so didnt want to do it anymore but he is still an active member. Emlyn will be the first to tell you whats the friendliest forum and in fact on the dyno day at hlm it was emlyns car that was last to go on and it was hamish who stayed till 7pm on the saturday night fixing his poorly running 850r for him till it was right. so all this hamish bashing is just bandwagon bull****, he is an alright bloke if you got to know him.

[TSG]

Originally Posted by t5frankie

so all this hamish bashing is just bandwagon bull****, he is an alright bloke if you got to know him.

Hmm,
So all this stuff about bad workmanship, poor customer service and down right rudeness to customers is fabricated?.....

[t5frankie]

Originally Posted by TSG

Hmm,
So all this stuff about bad workmanship, poor customer service and down right rudeness to customers is fabricated?.....

chinese whispers mate, he is who he is i suppose but he knows what he's doing. i know chris is watching hello mate