Advanced driving -upside down way

[ThomasG]

So..

I'm looking for ways to improve my driving.

No- I don't find it lacking, I just want to improve.
As a matter of fact I had quite few good words addressed towards me, "not a driver- a bl..dy pilot" (smooth ride, transit van), "whenever he's driving, I feel safe" (from long distance shipping driver, various occasions/cars), things like that.

Yet.. There's always space for improvement

At first I was looking for skidpan training. I know (after recent trip in snow) that one day it will come handy. I'll get there (to that training). When its warmer and I have less of work related pressure.

In the meantime I started reading IAMs "better driver".
After mentioning it in some thread I was even contacted by one of observers (genuine thank you for that).

But...

This book makes me.. uneasy.

First thing that has stricken me is the overall tone of the book.

Its literally " Do the test! Do the test! Do it! Its the most important thing! Don't forget about the test!"

I mean.. Really?

I have to say, I had pretty much same feeling reading PMs from aforementioned IAM member.

Some useful info in it, but mostly "help with preparation to the test" "how to pass the test"..

Friggin " Holly Grail"!

It took a while to.convey that I'm not really interested in the test itself.
What I'm interested in is improving my driving.
What I'm interested in are skills.
What I'm interested in are all the little tricks that tell you what's lurking behind corner/lorry/coach..
What I'm interested in are ways to better predict what's ahead, to better prepare for what's ahead, to be more observant, to make better decisions.

Test itself? Maybe. If there's time.

By now I'm in the middle if that book, gently plodding trough the pages when I have a minute or two.

And I will tell you this: I will not pass this test.

If I attempted it- I'd fail.
I'd fail today. I'd fail tomorrow. I'd fail in 6 months and in 2 years.

I'm in disagreement(s) with this book. Parts of this book. Sufficient to fail.
Because I cannot accept things until I can see logic behind them.

"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-incurred immaturity. Immaturity is the inability to use one's own understanding without the guidance of another. This immaturity is self-incurred if its cause is not lack of understanding, but lack of resolution and courage to use it without the guidance of another. The motto of enlightenment is therefore: Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding!

Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why such a large proportion of men, even when nature has long emancipated them from alien guidance..." I. Kant, "Political writings" (1784)

So I don't take things "in" only because someone told me to.
I will not accept "you must do this or that" if I don't know "why".

And most of all- I will not accept any of above if my own experience tells me differently.

Braking in a turn? Why not? If you know and are staying within grip limits of your car.. Many tines it will mean very very light braking. But its still braking. And not as the book dictate: " thou shall not"

My viewpoints aren't set.
If they were, I wouldn't be opening this thread.


You see... I want to learn.
Learn by understanding things, not by memorizing things.

I want to talk, to dispute, to defeat misconceptions and defend what I think is good and workable.
I want to tear this book (and following one, too) to pieces, extract everything useful, dispose off with anything that was created only to "protect writers rear parts in case its used in court".

I don't know how soon I will start bringing in discusdion topics. Maybe in an hour. Maybe in few days. As work and home life permits.

But I will.

And I hope to have someone to talk to about issues I found

[37 RUBY]

ThomasG,

I'm in partial agreement.

Any text book training whether IAM or Roadcraft can often become so regimented in various instructions such as "thou shalt not break in a corner" or " "Don't brake gear overlap or else".

I find a lot of the training manuals still repeat instruction that are based on early publications when it took a fortnight to change gear on your 1982 2.8 Ford Granada whose suspension had wound itself up ready to relieve the rear wheels of grip and overload the front grip. Cars, technology, tyres and road surfaces have moved on but has the train of thought?
It is good to see they have changed "brake gear overlap" to "brake steer overlap" but it still a disjointed jerky driving style if not carried out exactly.

My interpretation of the text books is that they are based on a progressive drive rather than a tootle, so as you rightly say a bit of gentle braking on a bend when grip/conditions are good should be accepted in ordinary everyday journeys.
However when on a spirited progressive drive that thought pattern is fraught with danger.

Vanishing points get me in a mither when on a progressive drive. It's all very well reading well ahead and keeping up your pace but what is around that corner?....probably someone who has pulled up in an inappropriate place to check Bookface or some other social media notification.

If you want the IAM qualification you have to adhere to the manual. Simple as that.
If not , take out of it what you want, disregard the rest and carry on as you were but be safe.

[ThomasG]

If by "progressive ride" you mean what I was doing in Lake District last year..
No, of course you weren't there to see it and subsequently know how I was doing there.

But there is a chance that you know what kinds of roads are there
Roads that indeed require some focus.

For myself I call that area "driver paradise".Especially Crumrock water to Keswick, approaches to other lakes...

Yes. In those conditions I did use most of advice given by IAM even as I didn't know of this organisations (and publications) very existence. (So not really advice taken in, but rather things I worked out myself that coincidentally correspond to IAMs guidance)

But would I keep my hands at 10-2 o'clock in, for example, start-stop traffic?



As I said- I'll be raising these things later.

I would happily do it now, but I'd like to give it a bit of .. coherence (for a lack of better word).
Instead of jumping from one aspect to another, I'd like to get them one by one.

For ease of use/neatness - in the order that they appear in the book.

And, as life dictates- its now that I have these few minutes to raise this thread, and its now that I don't have the book with me, even if only to tick off " this one is being challenged/talked about".

So I'll be back

[green van man]

When you drive rural roads every day it's a very different environment to town or motorway.
A neighbour of mine was a patrol car driver, had done the high speed pursuit and had all the bells and whistles. Talking in the lane one day it got around to a training course he had just done with some of the motorway guys. Scared me ****less was his words. Yes on the motorway at 150 mph no problem whatsoever, take them off the motorway and they terrified him in their lack of awareness and in experiance of driving at speed in the prevalent conditions. As he said, they could not live with most of the club rally drivers around here, it's not about speed but progress and the cars are not half as sorted for the lanes as any club rally car. Off the motorway they would be eaten alive and left for dead by a club RS2.

When a highly trained police pursuit driver is saying that about his fellow patrol car drivers it makes you wonder at road craft which was their bible.

Driving is a skill, like any skill you get better the more you practice it.

Paul.

[37 RUBY]

Originally Posted by green van man

it's not about speed but progress...

If only all using Roadcraft could understand this...speed is not always necessary. Often the ability to see obstructions well ahead of time and the legislation when using Roadcraft that allows you to queue jump. Get there but get there safely.

Originally Posted by green van man

When a highly trained police pursuit driver is saying that about his fellow patrol car drivers it makes you wonder at road craft which was their bible.

Not all are like that but it's like anything there's always one or two to spoil it for the good ones.

Originally Posted by green an man

Driving is a skill, like any skill you get better the more you practice it.

But like ThomasG you have to accept that you can always learn new skills and that regardless of training IAM or Roadcraft that humans driving lumps of steel is a precarious thing.

[ThomasG]

Right..
made it home, a little break between the jobs..
much easier to type on ful size keyboard too, but theres no autocorrection.. win some, loose some.

got the book.

and from the beginning:

driving position- no real objections here, from me at least.
I have seen way too many people either with their chests almost touching the steering wheel (mostly women) or laid so far back that they can barely touch the wheel (mostly men)

myself i will have the seat adjusted mostly as "per book". maybe slightly, only slightly closer to the pedals (moved forward) and laid back (backrest). in the end I aim at being able to grip the wheel "the proper way" and have ability to set my left foot on the carpet with knee bent at right angle. That is- calf is pretty much vertical, and in the same time underside of my thigh doesnt press on seats edge. Great for circulation on longer journeys. Right leg doesnt have that easy life, though, being used for throttle control..

The way i would hold the wheel is quite a different matter though.
I only said that iI position myself "to be able" to hold it the "right" way, not that i do. Or at least not constantly.

Actually- with roads that i travel on and speeds involved- quite rarely.

How is that IAM and roadcraft condone the only approved, ever-correct way of holding the wheel and all the rest is just "wrong"?
World didnt turn black and white, did it?

What i actually do, and what by itself would cause me to fail the test:
the way i hold the wheel depends on conditions.
If I`m in start-stop Londons traffic- i`m barely moving. most of time i will sit there not moving at all, then slooowly propel myself these few metres onward.
And i will hold the wheel in the most relaxed way. usually with one hand only. typically holding the wheel at 4 o`clock, sometimes 6 o`clock to give rest to my elbow. it can take hours...

then on different end of driving spectrum- motorways. with exclusion of M25 which resembles traffic in Chelsea, London, anyway.

I have 2 hands positions for motorways.
EDIT: wrong wording used/removed:

Either that "saint" 10-2 o`clock, but thats reserved for either very high speeds (think germany) or very bad conditions (heavy rain, but not in the snow)

replaced with :

Either that "saint" 10-2 o`clock, but thats better suited for bad conditions (heavy traffic, heavy rain, poor visibility) but not good for snow

(even as i write i re-examine my thoughts, re-remeber what i was doing, how and when, these corrections will be happening, i want to be precise)

most of the time i will drive it with hands at 8-4 o`clock.

Why?

Because it gives me better control over all these small corrections that every driver has to be making constantly. Small corrections. The big, "overall" trajectory is planned in advance. hundreds of metres advance. This is also the grip that i used in snow- both on the recent trip, and on several occasions when "London has fallen".

I drive by fingertips.
Nothing beats this feedback from the road. at any moment i can increase the grip for stronger control.
I don`t have to hold my arms up. With 10-2 position, weight of the arms will be supported by hands gripping the wheel. But if you dont want to grip the wheel? I move my arms lower.

10-2 position gives greater force to operate the wheel. graet thing for a car that hasn`t got power steering. find me that car nowadays.
in the same time the very grip that the driver is using to support the weight of his/her arms severely limits road feedback.

Thats in my opinion.
(awaiting the oncoming hiding now)

[Ukwide]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

Right..
made it home, a little break between the jobs..
much easier to type on ful size keyboard too, but theres no autocorrection.. win some, loose some.

got the book.

and from the beginning:

driving position- no real objections here, from me at least.
I have seen way too many people either with their chests almost touching the steering wheel (mostly women) or laid so far back that they can barely touch the wheel (mostly men)

myself i will have the seat adjusted mostly as "per book". maybe slightly, only slightly closer to the pedals (moved forward) and laid back (backrest). in the end I aim at being able to grip the wheel "the proper way" and have ability to set my left foot on the carpet with knee bent at right angle. That is- calf is pretty much vertical, and in the same time underside of my thigh doesnt press on seats edge. Great for circulation on longer journeys. Right leg doesnt have that easy life, though, being used for throttle control..

The way i would hold the wheel is quite a different matter though.
I only said that iI position myself "to be able" to hold it the "right" way, not that i do. Or at least not constantly.

Actually- with roads that i travel on and speeds involved- quite rarely.

How is that IAM and roadcraft condone the only approved, ever-correct way of holding the wheel and all the rest is just "wrong"?
World didnt turn black and white, did it?

What i actually do, and what by itself would cause me to fail the test:
the way i hold the wheel depends on conditions.
If I`m in start-stop Londons traffic- i`m barely moving. most of time i will sit there not moving at all, then slooowly propel myself these few metres onward.
And i will hold the wheel in the most relaxed way. usually with one hand only. typically holding the wheel at 4 o`clock, sometimes 6 o`clock to give rest to my elbow. it can take hours...

then on different end of driving spectrum- motorways. with exclusion of M25 which resembles traffic in Chelsea, London, anyway.

I have 2 hands positions for motorways.

Either that "saint" 10-2 o`clock, but thats reserved for either very high speeds (think germany) or very bad conditions (heavy rain, but not in the snow)

most of the time i will drive it with hands at 8-4 o`clock.

Why?

Because it gives me better control over all these small corrections that every driver has to be making constantly. Small corrections. The big, "overall" trajectory is planned in advance. hundreds of metres advance. This is also the grip that i used in snow- both on the recent trip, and on several occasions when "London has fallen".

I drive by fingertips.
Nothing beats this feedback from the road. at any moment i can increase the grip for stronger control.
I don`t have to hold my arms up. With 10-2 position, weight of the arms will be supported by hands gripping the wheel. But if you dont want to grip the wheel? I move my arms lower.

(awaiting the oncoming hiding now)

Having passed the IAM Car, Motorcycle and LGV tests and having driven marked police cars for 25 years, the system the IAM advocate is progressive driving coupled with the ability to give a smooth ride for you, your passengers and the vehicle.

The next time you’re out driving with someone, take notice of their body language, are they tensing up or pushing an imaginary brake pedal, or are they sliding around on the leather seats, if they are, then your driving isn’t as smooth as you thought it was.

Both the IAM and Roadcraft are about awareness and progression but smooth progression on the road, I agree some of their teachings are now dated, the 10 to 2 wheel position was as a result of non-power steering, that way either hand could move the wheel by 40% of a turn before moving that hand.

You don’t need the test, but if you take it and pass it, there’s the feel good factor, the ability to hang a badge on the cars grille if that’s your thing, but it also makes you think what would I do next having proved you can drive safely, progressively and smoothly giving due regard to the mechanics of your car...

But hey it’s personal choice whether you do it or not..

[MikeGMT]

Can’t really argue with some of the points you have raised Thomas. Over the years I have had the same discussions with many associates regarding the points you have alluded to.

One thing to remember is that Roadcraft was written primarily for police drivers undertaking police driver training at a basic level. IAM’ s publication is a ‘watered’ down version, so a little easier to digest. All advanced road training is based on Roadcraft, so it’s the bible of on road training if you like, and has been updated over the years to incorporate the latest advances.

With regard to IAM’s “Better Driver”, everything is pertinent, wether people agree with it or not. Many associates question why certain things are done, or why is that appropriate, or why do you have to do this or that. Indeed it is good that they ask questions and not just blindly follow the text of the book. When the situation arises we always stop and discuss, I like to think that I can give a valid reason to their understanding of the book and it satisfies their question. Ultimately if you are doing the Rospa or IAM course you need to work to their standard, think of it as joining a club, they have set out the rules and if you want to join then they have to be obeyed.

Remember the majority of people doing the courses are doing it with the ultimate goal of passing the advanced test and gaining a qualification. Passing the test itself merely confirms you have met the standard of a set of core competencies, failing the test doesn’t mean you suddenly lose all this new found knowledge. Reading the books and self teaching is all possible, but how would you know you have reached the required standard. One thing to remember is it’s very easy to misinterpret something you have read and go off at a tangent.

Most drivers that I know who have passed their advanced test cherry pick the relevant parts, me included but the toolbox is always full should it be needed. A good example would be if you ever watch the tv programmes, Traffic Cops, Road Wars etc, they all passed their advanced tests but hardly ever use 10-2 or 1/4-3 hand positions on the wheel, they prefer to use whatever they are comfortable with, as long as the outcome is safe, smooth and accurate.

Braking in a turn, while there is nothing wrong with that per se, it could be looked upon as bad planning, think comfort braking. Ideally you should be of the brakes, at the right speed and in the correct gear for the bend if driving to ‘the system’. Braking in a bend may well be required, imagine confronting a circus elephant halfway round, I would suggest you are going to hit the brakes.

A couple of useful tips,
(1) Always expect the unexpected (think elephant as above, or insert your own obstruction).
(2) The ‘Golden Rule’, Always be able to stop on your own side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear.

[MikeGMT]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

Right..


What i actually do, and what by itself would cause me to fail the test:
the way i hold the wheel depends on conditions.
If I`m in start-stop Londons traffic- i`m barely moving. most of time i will sit there not moving at all, then slooowly propel myself these few metres onward.
And i will hold the wheel in the most relaxed way. usually with one hand only. typically holding the wheel at 4 o`clock, sometimes 6 o`clock to give rest to my elbow. it can take hours...

then on different end of driving spectrum- motorways. with exclusion of M25 which resembles traffic in Chelsea, London, anyway.

I have 2 hands positions for motorways.
EDIT: wrong wording used/removed:
replaced with :

Either that "saint" 10-2 o`clock, but thats better suited for bad conditions (heavy traffic, heavy rain, poor visibility) but not good for snow

(even as i write i re-examine my thoughts, re-remeber what i was doing, how and when, these corrections will be happening, i want to be precise)

most of the time i will drive it with hands at 8-4 o`clock.

Why?

Because it gives me better control over all these small corrections that every driver has to be making constantly. Small corrections. The big, "overall" trajectory is planned in advance. hundreds of metres advance. This is also the grip that i used in snow- both on the recent trip, and on several occasions when "London has fallen".

I drive by fingertips.
Nothing beats this feedback from the road. at any moment i can increase the grip for stronger control.
I don`t have to hold my arms up. With 10-2 position, weight of the arms will be supported by hands gripping the wheel. But if you dont want to grip the wheel? I move my arms lower.

10-2 position gives greater force to operate the wheel. graet thing for a car that hasn`t got power steering. find me that car nowadays.
in the same time the very grip that the driver is using to support the weight of his/her arms severely limits road feedback.

Thats in my opinion.
(awaiting the oncoming hiding now)

Don't get too hung up on steering Thomas, even the IAM have moved on. As long as it's safe, smooth and accurate. It is the outcome that is important.

A lot of people I have coached have a death grip on the wheel. Like you I have a light touch so no arm strain.

[Dibble]

Originally Posted by MikeGMT

Don't get too hung up on steering Thomas, even the IAM have moved on. As long as it's safe, smooth and accurate. It is the outcome that is important.

A lot of people I have coached have a death grip on the wheel. Like you I have a light touch so no arm strain.

Not gripping tightly but ready to exert maximum leverage if necessary.
In a place like London there is bound to be some traffic cop who could guide Thomas. If he was up here I could put him in touch with half a dozen guys who would put him through his paces. Lots of Traffic or ex Traffic guys on here who will know someone. Next time he sees a traffic car sitting at the side of the road he should go and speak to them. I know I should address this directly to Thomas but hopefully he will read it.