Manufacturers need to understand the influence of forums

[neon]

Originally Posted by Philip Fisher

Realistically if that is your aspiration and personality type then i would suggest that you pull out of your order now.

Me I can accept a few foibles and am reasonably relaxed about it. I also lease the car which means i havent paid 70k for it and it will go back at the end of the term. Also with the low bik it is cheaper overall than my last car which was 2 thirds of the list price of this one.

Yes I said I can accept some, but only with what is reasonable, or else I would just be encouraging Volvo not to get it right. Also it would not help other owners who have issues and probably makes it worse for them.
I am going to have a good think over the next couple of days.
I am drawn to the XC90 as I really admire Volvo for being brave on the design and it ticks most of the boxes from a specification point of view. It would be great to see another car manufacturer who can compete with the German cars.
Also the boss liked the XC90!

[aab203]

Originally Posted by neon

I think it is great that your car has been good and I hope it carries on. What I cannot understand is generally with software issues it will affect all cars you would think. It is really baffling.

"Software doesn't do what you want it do, it does what you tell it do"

Basically, everyone would have the same version of code (assuming they are up to date) as each other. So yes the 'bugs' in the code would be present for all. However, bugs will require specific steps/scenarios in order to become apparent. Some scenarios are easy to replicate whilst others would require an exact combination of factors before the bug / exception is thrown.

I think the issue is that people encounter these issues rather unexpectedly, and there can be a multitude of factors that could cause the problem, which is why a) the user might not remember their exact steps, and b) not everyone sees the problems materialise in their car

Given that Volvo controls the hardware and the software I would expect all these coding bugs to be present in all XC90 cars. If you don't know why it happened and you cannot replicate your exact steps then it makes the bug pretty hard to diagnose unfortunately.

I would like to think just like with any software app, there would be logs kept by the computer which can be analysed by Volvo if the car was taken to a dealer. I doubt you would take you car to the dealer because the Sensus re-started, but there could be a log of it somewhere and the next time you visit said dealer, Volvo might get a record that there was an unexpected reboot and probe why it happened.

Most people seem to feel that the car is mechanically sound but it is the software letting the experience down. Whilst this is a shame, unfortunately I guess this is the reality of new cars as everything is becoming automated / coded. Even from everything I am reading I am very happy with my decision to go for an XC90 and hope that by the time it rolls off the factory line there will be some further software patches.

Finally (I wasn't expecting to write so much!), whilst it may be frustrating that an error occurs and that 'I paid >50k for this car so it should be perfect' feeling kicks in, consider that it verges on impossible for Volvo to test and have thought about every conceivable use case a driver might put the car through (or even external factors that cannot be controlled). It does require putting the software / cars in the wild and keep an eye on them. Also... bug fixes can take time too. Just because Volvo knows a bug exists doesn't mean it is a simple fix.

Anyway, perhaps I look at things slightly differently as I am in the software industry and know first hand what it's like from the business side trying to deal with issues that the general public are shouting to get resolved. Just my two pennies....

[neon]

Great explanation and I am a bit more relaxed when you know a software issue can be solved.
The area of opportunity for Volvo though is how they communicate and provide a good customer experience.
Silly things like not being able to log into my Volvo for 3 days and a very poor official forum does not help with building confidence.

[AB-UK]

aab203 - just as a matter of interest, will yours be a private purchase too?

[aab203]

Originally Posted by AB-UK

aab203 - just as a matter of interest, will yours be a private purchase too?

Yep it will be

[BTXC90]

Originally Posted by aab203

"Software doesn't do what you want it do, it does what you tell it do"

Basically, everyone would have the same version of code (assuming they are up to date) as each other. So yes the 'bugs' in the code would be present for all. However, bugs will require specific steps/scenarios in order to become apparent. Some scenarios are easy to replicate whilst others would require an exact combination of factors before the bug / exception is thrown.

I think the issue is that people encounter these issues rather unexpectedly, and there can be a multitude of factors that could cause the problem, which is why a) the user might not remember their exact steps, and b) not everyone sees the problems materialise in their car

Given that Volvo controls the hardware and the software I would expect all these coding bugs to be present in all XC90 cars. If you don't know why it happened and you cannot replicate your exact steps then it makes the bug pretty hard to diagnose unfortunately.

I would like to think just like with any software app, there would be logs kept by the computer which can be analysed by Volvo if the car was taken to a dealer. I doubt you would take you car to the dealer because the Sensus re-started, but there could be a log of it somewhere and the next time you visit said dealer, Volvo might get a record that there was an unexpected reboot and probe why it happened.

Most people seem to feel that the car is mechanically sound but it is the software letting the experience down. Whilst this is a shame, unfortunately I guess this is the reality of new cars as everything is becoming automated / coded. Even from everything I am reading I am very happy with my decision to go for an XC90 and hope that by the time it rolls off the factory line there will be some further software patches.

Finally (I wasn't expecting to write so much!), whilst it may be frustrating that an error occurs and that 'I paid >50k for this car so it should be perfect' feeling kicks in, consider that it verges on impossible for Volvo to test and have thought about every conceivable use case a driver might put the car through (or even external factors that cannot be controlled). It does require putting the software / cars in the wild and keep an eye on them. Also... bug fixes can take time too. Just because Volvo knows a bug exists doesn't mean it is a simple fix.

Anyway, perhaps I look at things slightly differently as I am in the software industry and know first hand what it's like from the business side trying to deal with issues that the general public are shouting to get resolved. Just my two pennies....

Well said.

To draw a parallel, we have these android apps like google maps or whatsapp being used by billions of people and we keep receiving software updates and bug fixes even today, almost one per week. (of course we don't pay 55K for them )

[jimbg]

But the app is probably working fine for you in the first place!!

I am long retired from the software industry and was a software engineer on avionics systems and we would not get away with the cr*p that is being delivered in these cars.

There is no excuse for some of the errors we are seeing today.

[neon]

Originally Posted by jimbg

But the app is probably working fine for you in the first place!!

I am long retired from the software industry and was a software engineer on avionics systems and we would not get away with the cr*p that is being delivered in these cars.

There is no excuse for some of the errors we are seeing today.

Well said as well, I sometimes feel that we are trying to justify why Volvo get it wrong. Unfortunately, the more people who make it clear to Volvo it is not acceptable the quicker it will be sorted. After all this car is £50k plus new, lease or not. At the moment they are riding high with great reviews and awards. Need a reality check here and hopefully this good car will be a great car.

[aab203]

Originally Posted by jimbg

But the app is probably working fine for you in the first place!!

I am long retired from the software industry and was a software engineer on avionics systems and we would not get away with the cr*p that is being delivered in these cars.

There is no excuse for some of the errors we are seeing today.

But it is working fine is it not? There are times when it messes up and gets reported here, but I am not seeing anyone writing about catastrophic failures or the Sensus being in a constant state of misbehaviour. I don't have first hand experience, but this is my understanding

I think comparing this to aviation software is a little like comparing apples and pears. I would guess (but tell me if this is wrong as I have no experience in that industry) that aviation is a controlled environment. Software is written to be executed under different scenarios for which pilots / staff are trained for. It is more of a 'mission critical' system for which users are not 'let loose' on and come up with weird ways of using software.

Car manufacturers however have no control how the car is used once someone sits in it and takes control. They can tap any combination of buttons and execute a 'weird' sequence of events that the system hadn't been designed to handle. I would say there are a many more variables at play than controlled avionics systems. If Volvo were to test this to death, the car would probably never get released.

It may sound like I am defending Volvo, but I am not I am merely trying to paint a picture of reality in order to [try and] help people's perceptions of software issues. It is all too easy to jump to conclusions.

If Volvo never released a software update since the cars were put on the market then yes, this would be unacceptable. However it appears there are monthly updates (leaving aside the need to visit the dealership), so they are clearly working on problems. There needs to be a happy medium between real world feedback from users putting the cars in situations that Volvo may not have tested / thought about (there is after all just a team of other humans writing code, so nobody is infallible) and Vovlo releasing bug fixes / new improvements... which it seems like they are doing

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EDIT: What I think would be really nice, if Volvo had some area where they acknowledged certain issues and had a confirmation they were being worked on and would be included in a future update. There seems to be an inability from any company I've ever worked at which interfaces with the public to have a decent line of communication. It doesn't have to necessarily be two-way like a forum (once you set a precedent that you answer people's questions then everyone will expect their post to be responded to as well). They clearly have this mechanism for service downtime, as highlighted in another thread for the Volvo apps that have been down for the last few days, so it would be nice to see a list of known issues that are under review. It would probably save a lot of forum posts!

[neon]

Again well said and the point I was trying to make on Customer Service and communication.
This will only be achieved with the right investment behind it both in ability and resource. Not easy and needs some real hard work to achieve.
Volvo are obviously investing a huge amount in a lot of areas to deliver such a great car, let's hope they also are investing in the support structures to the same degree.