Anti-diesel hysteria - should I go for T8 instead?

[Clan]

Originally Posted by Hartlepool Mariner

I have the D5 as I can get the best part of 600 miles (960km) between fuel stops which takes about 5 minutes at my local supermarket.

I drive up to 900 miles (1440km) a week, with about 5 miles of this in towns. I frequently stop at hotels with virtually no chance of charging overnight.

With the T8, I would be filling up every other day and carrying several hundred kg of potentially dangerous batteries around for virtually no benefit. I would be paying about £200 a month extra for this dubious pleasure.

If Volvo move away from diesel, this will be my first and last Volvo.

The diesel with be with us for the foreseeable future, however , volvo will be supplementing it with and an electric motor and a battery from next year . so it is bound to improve economy .

[AB-UK]

I think it will be only petrol supplemented by electric and batteries.
Volvo have stated they will discontinue diesel power.
One of several articles to this effect :-

https://fleetworld.co.uk/volvo-to-ph...sel-from-2019/

[Haldex]

MaDProFF, when I said commercial vehicles I meant in general- not pizza delivery cars/vans.. Trucks/lorries, busses, etc- are all diesels and will remain diesels- at least for as lomg as you and I live.. And this is actually where 95% soot/NOx comes from.

To be fair to T8-powered cars- they are SERIOUSLY fun cars to drive! The relativelly high extra urban consumption should be considered in terms of the V8-like performance they offer. So for those looking for a seriously fast luxury SUV with reasonable consumption- I think T8 is the only way to go.

[Haldex]

Originally Posted by AB-UK

I think it will be only petrol supplemented by electric and batteries.
Volvo have stated they will discontinue diesel power.
One of several articles to this effect :-

https://fleetworld.co.uk/volvo-to-ph...sel-from-2019/

Yeah, depends how you read it..

“From 2019, no new model launches will have diesel engines, with all newcomers instead having at least a ‘mild-hybrid’ partially electrified drivetrain to cut CO2 emissions.”

Volvo sales in Europe are still nearly 80% diesels.. even if the number falls to 50% - heck, even 30%- giving up on 30% of your clientele and handing them over to German competitors would be a seriously dumb business decision. Time will show if Mr Sheng Yue Gui is that dumb..

[XC90Mk1]

Originally Posted by Clan

If the price was right , the battery would still have 3 years warranty left , the battery doesn't suddenly fail , the range just drops every year .. and by the time it needed one there will be reconditioning centres around to refurbish them At a "reasonable" price ,possibly with superior cells . Volvo already have one reconditioning centre ..

That’s not true. Battery’s can and do fail at a cell Level or go wrong/refuse to charge.

I would be worried about used values.

That said, I am currently looking at a T8 because no matter how you spin it you will never get 400BHP and 35mpg easy for the money.

[andyg]

I am not sure how the car market in Luxembourg works, but in the UK there are personal contract leasing deals over 3 or 4 years that are very popular at the moment. At the end of the contract period there is a guaranteed car value (assuming no damage etc).

So it is the car finance company that takes the risk on the second hand value of the car, not the driver.

If the market for diesel cars completely bombs in the next few years because of government air pollution policies then you could exchange the D5 for a hybrid or whatever car when the contract ends. My son is an accountant and earlier this year he did exactly this on a new 2.0L diesel Mercedes E Class estate. He got a cracking price on the Merc because diesels every month are getting harder to sell in the UK and the dealer was keen to make a sale. It leaves my son's options open in 4 years time when it comes to either buy the car outright or exchange it. Of course it is the whole contract cost that counts versus an outright purchase and depreciation over the period. These contracts also have charges for going over a total mileage limit and that might not suit everyone. The car financing market in Luxembourg may be different, but contract lease is definitely worth considering right now in the UK for anyone looking for a new diesel car.

[Duri13]

Originally Posted by MaDProFF

Buying a T8 for economy wise is all about how many miles you do a day and is that a lot of motorway? In my opinion there are only 2 reasons why you would not buy one, you cannot afford the difference in price, or you do a shed load of miles on a motorway driving very fast.

Most of the time I could happily live with T8, driving on electricity and for remaining small part of my trips use petrol. But then few times a year I need to drive to Slovakia, Spain, Croatia, Austria, etc. and those are 1000+ km highway rides, going as fast as possible (in DE over 100mph, elsewhere within limits). That is where diesel cars would excel. And that would be about 10.000km a year (from 30k total).

When I calculate my expected T8 fuel economy: 8000km on electricity (is there still some small fuel consumption? Maybe 140mpg) + 9000km in hybrid mode (40mpg) + 13000km fast highway km (maybe 22mpg), I get about 34mpg overall. With diesel I would do probably the same fuel economy.
So with current fuel prices (diesel 1.1EUR/liter, petrol 1.2EUR/liter) there is almost no difference in running costs of D5 and T8 for me. Just that T8 is 7000EUR more expensive Instead of paying 2000 for air-suspension I rather cover some part of this extra.

It goes down to a crystal ball - how quickly will diesel cars get banned or if there will be a significant tax increase for diesel...I will need to sit down and think if I am willing to pay this premium for having a 400hp beast

[Duri13]

Originally Posted by andyg

I am not sure how the car market in Luxembourg works, but in the UK there are personal contract leasing deals over 3 or 4 years that are very popular at the moment. At the end of the contract period there is a guaranteed car value (assuming no damage etc).

Maybe there is such thing in Luxembourg but not for me. I will be buying this car with diplomatic/expat discounts and no VAT. Which means I need to pay hard cash with no other financing options, which is fine with me.

[MaDProFF]

Originally Posted by Duri13

Most of the time I could happily live with T8, driving on electricity and for remaining small part of my trips use petrol. But then few times a year I need to drive to Slovakia, Spain, Croatia, Austria, etc. and those are 1000+ km highway rides, going as fast as possible (in DE over 100mph, elsewhere within limits). That is where diesel cars would excel. And that would be about 10.000km a year (from 30k total).

When I calculate my expected T8 fuel economy: 8000km on electricity (is there still some small fuel consumption? Maybe 140mpg) + 9000km in hybrid mode (40mpg) + 13000km fast highway km (maybe 22mpg), I get about 34mpg overall. With diesel I would do probably the same fuel economy.
So with current fuel prices (diesel 1.1EUR/liter, petrol 1.2EUR/liter) there is almost no difference in running costs of D5 and T8 for me. Just that T8 is 7000EUR more expensive Instead of paying 2000 for air-suspension I rather cover some part of this extra.

It goes down to a crystal ball - how quickly will diesel cars get banned or if there will be a significant tax increase for diesel...I will need to sit down and think if I am willing to pay this premium for having a 400hp beast

Depending if you have an aux fuel heater (which you do have to in the uk) that is the only fuel used when in pure more, it is very small amount, in pure mode journeys I get a 150 MPG all the time on the MPG worked out on the car, oddly in the VOC Journal it can show well over 150 MPG for that journey, 280+ MPG

As I said it is all about battery management going downhill on a long motorway section and put the car into battery charge mode you can gain good battery Regen that gives you battery range again, on the downside it is a little monotonous to continually swap between modes, personally there should be 2 fixed buttons on the steering wheel one for each , but I would guess I am a minority.

I think the longest motorway journey I have done when the car was new, about 150 miles only started with 50% battery, and still got over 35 mpg driving fast and slow and in traffic. and that was me knowing nothing about the car compared to now.

Remember you have to include calculations of the difference in petrol and diesel prices growing further apart like that are at the moment in the uk.

Hard to really work out an exact figure, be easy if we had a crystal ball.

[anotherv60]

A few things about batteries and warranties.

1) The only measurements you can make are current or voltage and calculate resistance - it is NOT possible to measure state of charge; therefore it is not possible to know when the battery is going to fail; if you use the vehicle outside of the manufactures calibration you really are into unknown territory with respect to life.

2) Sate of charge is a guess - an educated guess based upon the test vehicles being driven and then recharged.

3) The battery in a car is dependent upon the quality and consistency of the cells that are put together into modules which are then put together to form the vehicles battery pack.

4) I am not sure what Volvo use as the basis for their batteries, but the most common type used in vehicles is the 2140 type batters (i.e. AA) batteries. They are somewhat more professionally assembled together than the ones used for remote control cars and boats but this is not new technology!

Without lots of sophistication with respect to module and individual cell voltage measurements, it is very easy to damage a significant portion of the battery, bring in the variability in temperature and operating condition and its a guess as to how long the pack will work in a suitable way, this will all lead to loss of capacity over time. Also like all other companies this is not covered in the warranty.

"For eight years from the date the vehicle is Delivered to the first owner or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, any material defect of the hybrid Lithium battery pack will be rectified free of charge by an authorised Volvo dealer.

The Lithium battery fitted to Volvo hybrids, like all lithium batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from normal gradual capacity loss is not covered under the Volvo new car warranty."

For these reasons I would be concerned about spending too much on a secondhand hybrid / EV at the moment.