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'66 Amazon Headlight > brake-light : gremlins

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Old Oct 18th, 2019, 13:14   #1
BLS07
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Default '66 Amazon Headlight > brake-light : gremlins

Hello fellow Volvo enthusiasts !

Would greatly appreciate the imparting of some advice in respect of the following conundrum, please.

Vehicle spec:
Amazon '66 122, LHD, B20, and some months back I replaced dynamo with a nice alternator upgrade. All has been brilliant since that swap.

until..

Headlights had been fine, until an issue with original foot switch arose, currently working on getting that out of the car. Screws have ceased, and easing them out is taking a while.

I have an interim replacement in the car using a foot-dipper switch from Brookhouse Volvo. Which itself seems to be A-OK.

Standard wiring throughout the car, per Haynes and original Volvo manual resources to hand.

At foot-dipper switch, wiring is:
i) Two red, one larger gauge than the other. (main / high beam)
ii) One Grey (dipped / regular beam)
iii) One Yellow (power from switch)

Problem / Issue

1) Headlights are only both on when foot-dipper is set to main-beam ("high beam").

** Only front left headlight (and all til lights) on when foot-dipper switch is set to "dipped beam"

2) Brake-lights only "pulse" / "flash" when brake pedal engaged IF headlight switch on the instrument panel is OFF. (all the way in)

3) Tail lights all ON and A-OK when headlight switch on the instrument panel is ON. (just brakes don't "flash" per 2 above)

4) Indicators - all four work fine, all the time.

5) Front left parking light - "glows" when brake pedal is engaged. AND when regular-beam (dipped beam) is operating per 1 above.

Is this likely;

A) Something in engine bay section of wiring (connector / junction box or relays)

B) Something in the Grey wire from foot-dipper switch to the junction box

C) something else entirely?

Appreciate wiring / electrical fault tracing is oft more complex than this - but just wondering if there is an obvious answer that as a newbie to all this am not picking up on.

Would really appreciate your advice !

Cheers, BLS.
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Old Oct 18th, 2019, 15:48   #2
Ron Kwas
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BLS;

Compliments in presenting the Pre and Post failure state and conditions...!

If all was working fine after Alt conversion, we can pretty much discount that, and Chg Sys wiring changes which were made at the time, and those would typically not be involved with the lighting anyway...

I recommend multiple applications of light oil or penetrating oils to help with extracting Foot Switch securing hardware...before removal, you might try removing just the wires and connecting them to replacement Foot Sw, then checking if fault remains...I expect it may be still present, and typically when circuits which are not tied together, all of a sudden become somehow related or inadvertently connected, it points to a compromised or even fully open chassis connection (what happens is, the wires of the two circuits stay together, expecting to be at zero/chassis potential, but they are not, tying the two circuits together)...odd symptoms and often very strange interactions result!...sound familiar?

Suggested reading:https://www.sw-em.com/electical_circ...it_Interaction ...then equip yourself with some ACZP (See: https://www.sw-em.com/anti_corrosive_paste.htm ) ... and clean and refurbish the chassis connections on the front of the vehicle, and I clearly recommend starting with those having to do with Lighting...also, clean and treat with ACZP, the individual connectors of the Lighting Hex Conn in the engine compartment!

I've highlighted the connections of interest in Red here: https://www.sw-em.com/Lighting_chass...s_hex_conn.jpg ...it's up to you to locate them...I believe you'll find them behind the Headlight Buckets, or just follow the Lighting harnesses there...

Please report back with results!

Good Hunting!
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Old Oct 18th, 2019, 21:13   #3
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Hi Ron,

Brilliant! Thank you for the detailed reply, advice and links.
Much appreciated.

I shall get stuck in to resolving this wiring conundrum and feedback.

Have a great weekend.

Cheers, BLS
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Old Oct 19th, 2019, 21:52   #4
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Hi Ron,

Thanks again for the suggestions and advice.

So far up I have done the following;

1) checked every external bulb and fitting front & rear
- in what felt like a possible (all too obvious) eureka moment, found the left front Parker light was truly done. Smokey glass. Blown.

- all other bulbs and fittings : fine and solid.

2) Checked fuse box: all good, the connectors are spiffing new anyway. Fuses all fine.

3) Checked the junction / connector box from left of engine re main light harness. Looked in very good knick, spades in pretty good shape largely clean.
- didn’t have time to “polish” them up today. No signs of corrosion or deathly sparky dust either.

4) Two earthing points, within front end of engine bay and both on chassis.
- left side just below the harness junction box in engine bay.
- right side same position, just opposing side of engine bay.
- image of both points attached here
- drilled & then screw through inside wheel hub / outer engine bay wall.

5) Interim Brookhouse Volvo issued dipper switch (recently installed this summer) ; removed grey wire (dipped beam / regular beam) as high beam works yet only left headlight ON when diaper switched to “dipped beam”
- just out of curiosity & elimination ;

All without change to aforementioned gremlins.

Is it possible that it’s not junction box, fuse box or either front end earthing points ?
- instead simply a bad wire within the headlight harness ?
- or the wires connecting to the foot dipper switch ?
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Old Oct 20th, 2019, 15:23   #5
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BLS;

Again, compliments on you detailed presentation of findings.

Comments:
1. Finding and replacing a defective bulb is certainly a good start...
2. Lighting (other than Instrument) is not fused, so likely not involved in causing the "gremlins"...but knowing Fuses and FB are in good shape is good associated info...
3. ...as is knowing general state of connections along the way...
4. ...and chassis connections certainly also look good (ideally, I would prefer to see the ACZP used on connections to know that they will stay electrically without developing series resistance as corrosion increases with time)...don't forget also, that the base of bulbs is in the chassis connection circuit, so must be without a series resistance. (Shown well here: https://www.sw-em.com/Amazon_Rear_Li...estoration.htm ) ...reminder: This connection is indeed as important as those screws into the bodywork!
5. OK...and the fact that it hasn't changed symptoms means we must keep looking, taking and considering troubleshooting findings...I will revisit the initial description more carefully...are you able to make voltage measurements with a Voltmeter? I might need to move onto power-up measurements at some point in the TroubleShooting process...

Answers to your Qs:
"- instead simply a bad wire within the headlight harness ?"...Possibly I suppose, but in general, wire (if not externally and mechanically insulted), does not go bad...terminations/crimps etc. develop resistance and eventually opens with MUCH higher frequency...
- or the wires connecting to the foot dipper switch ? Again, it is always important to keep an open mind during TS (lest we be shown to be foolish once the root cause is finally found, and we have previously unequivocally discounted it...) so I wont say it is impossible these could be involved (note my use of "wiggle-words" like "unlikely" and "probably", etc. during explanations), indeed if you have a Full-Beam signalling relay installed (an alternate source of power onto the Red Wires), the circuit does increase in complexity, and this must be taken into account during TS...

See also this thread with Simon's very good explanation of current paths during a fault condition caused by probably poor chassis connection (never confirmed, but consistent with symptoms and intermediate findings): https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=257267

Good Hunting!
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Old Oct 20th, 2019, 16:26   #6
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Cheers Ron!

Shall press on.

Voltmeter on order, as figured it may be required if not this time definitely another!

Recollection of symptoms in lead up to current state (pardon the pun!)

- recall newly installed (interim) foot- dipper switch get a bit sparky (electrics smelt at the time) at Grey wire input due to the original crimp being worse then I thought. I immediately changed and re-crimped to a new ring connector more aptly fitting the Brookhouse foot-dipper switch.

Wondering if that sent something of a bad charge up the circuit ?

Anyway, I’ll check the connections as you’ve described.

Will put some ACZP on order this evening, too.

Feedback soon.

Cheers!
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Old Oct 20th, 2019, 21:45   #7
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Hmmm.. I can't seem to find ACZP supply in the UK.

Other slight variations, but not to the same spec as you detail within your site, Ron.

Anyone have any suggestions for good options within the UK, please?

Cheers!

—- only found a reseller of Burndy Penetrox within the UK via EBay ..

Last edited by BLS07; Oct 20th, 2019 at 23:08.
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Old Oct 20th, 2019, 23:07   #8
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I'm confused with what has happened when you have disconnected the grey wire.

Are you saying that with grey wire disconnected and dipped switch pushed, 1 headlight comes on? If grey wire is disconnected, then dipped lights shouldn't come on. Therefore, bypass the switch by touching the grey wire to the yellow wire. Both dipped beam should come on.

Touch yellow wire to red wire and full beam should come on.

If that happens, you have a faulty dipper switch! They aren't great switches; they're the same as in a Beetle and they don't last well either and new ones aren't as good quality as originals. I've had new Beetle dipper switches that have failed prematurely.

Another thing: people readily and confidently put in more powerful bulbs than originally fitted. As Ron pointed out, the headlights aren't fused on these cars, so you can wreck the wires easily. So don't forget to trace the yellow wire all the way back to the switch checking for signs of deterioration. I've seen it before where the yellow wire has burnt out where halogen bulbs have been fitted.

HOWEVER: I can't work out the other problems with brake lights and side lights from your description. I'm not sure that you don't have 2 separate problems going on here.

But before we go investigating that, please could you just look at the following:

Locate the headlight flasher relay under the bonnet located on the N/S inner wing. Disconnect the black lead from the relay. Does the problem go away? If not, disconnect the grey lead and see if the problem goes away. If the problem goes away having disconnected the black lead, I'd say your flasher relay has had it. If the problem goes away having disconnected the grey lead, you might want to consider taking out your indicator switch and giving it a good clean up.

If all that doesn't work out, then there's something else in my mind. But come back to us with those results!
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Last edited by swedishandgerman; Oct 20th, 2019 at 23:09.
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Old Oct 20th, 2019, 23:23   #9
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Thanks SW&GER !

I’ll try those tests too, much appreciate the advice!

Yeah, exactly. It’s odd.
Grey wire off = no headlights at dipped beam
Grey wire on = LH headlight only at dipper beam
Switch to Full-Beam = both LH & RH headlights ON.
Brake-lights = ZERO response if Headlights or Parker’s ON.
Brake-lights = FULLY responsive with NO headlights on (instrument switch all-the-way-in ie OFF)
Indicators = All four work fine ALL times in ALL above scenarios.
Reverse Lights = as per indicators, no sweat.
Interior lights = as per indicators, no sweat.

Multimeter arriving Monday, I’ll get into testing across each point with that too.
Headlight sockets / wiring in from harness / junction box / wiring into foot well that feeds the Brookhouse interim foot-dipper switch / tail lights ...although every aspect of the rear lighting works fine, when headlights OFF / instrument lighting connections/ relays in engine bay.

Puzzled..

Cheers!

Last edited by BLS07; Oct 20th, 2019 at 23:35.
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Old Oct 20th, 2019, 23:37   #10
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Okay - that's a bit more clear. Try a new bulb in RH light then. That should deal with headlight problem straight away. You have a knackered bulb.

The other is a separate problem that needs sorting out. To do with your rear light clusters; they get full of mank and deterioration and the connectors are somewhat flimsy. Open up the rear lights and check all connectors:
  • Red wires for brake lights
  • Green wires for indicators
  • Grey for reverse lights
  • white for tail lights

So specifically check out the red and white wires. They really do get manky and a good session with a Dremmel cleaner soldering iron, sorting out any frayed wires sorts stuff out. For the cost of new bulbs, now would be a good time to just go ahead and change them. Good time to also clean up the old lenses and stuff.

Don't worry about indicators, reverse lights and interior lights. They're all completely separate from this issue so won't be affected.

If the above doesn't work, get back to me again because you might want to check out your brake light switch. But see if the other works out first!
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