Problems with classicswede

[940_Turbo]

Originally Posted by LPG-T5

I'd prefer to see customer complaints handled face-to-face giving any supplier the chance to rectify things. In my working life (IT consultant) this is how I work.

I always say that you measure an organisation not always on how perfect their service is first time round but rather on how they resolved issues that came up and how I felt about that.

To be fair both of the cars did go back, the opportunity was given to correct the issues.

[Thanatos]

And we still have issues

[mikealder]

At the request of the vehicles owner I spent a few hours last Saturday taking a closer look at the Ford Explorer LPG conversion (the vehicle which this thread has been about) carried out by "Classicswede" including the repair following the gas leak from one of the tanks, the prime source of reference to base this information on is:

BS EN 12979 Automotive LPG systems - Installation requirements.

This screen grab was made last week at the same time we were picking the Ford Explorer up from North Wales



Lo and behold the first thing we spot when taking a look in the engine bay, tywraps securing the LPG injector rails, these really are not suitable for use when subject to hot / cold / hot cycles which causes them to go brittle and snap:



And the same method is employed on the other bank of injectors:



The very fact you personally acknowledge that Tywraps are not suitable to retain LPG injectors, it does seem strange that you still employ this method.

More tywaps employed securing the gas delivery hose





BS EN 12979 Para 5,8 Gas pipes and hoses:
Gas pipes and flexible hoses shall be secured by clamps to the main structure of the vehicle or to parts rigidly connected to the main structure of the vehicle

The use of tywraps securing a Gas delivery hose to the Air conditioning pipe hardly complies with the BS EN

BS EN 12979 Para 5,8 Gas pipes and hoses:
Gas pipes or flexible hoses shall be fitted with a protective sleeve at the fixing points in order to prevent abrasion.

No pipe securing clamps used on the vehicle in question meet this BS EN requirement.

BS EN 12979 Para 5.12 Electrical Installation:
The fuse shall be installed in a known location where it can be reached without the use of tools

Ok so we found it, no information supplied with the vehicle to indicate where this item was located, a location only known to the intaller is of no use at all, the location information for the fuse should be passed on the owner of the vehicle.



BS EN 12979 Annex B.2:
If a cylinderical container is installed longitudinally to the motor vehicle, a transverse plate shall be at the front of the container frame.
This plate shall be:
- at least the same thickness of the container frame
- at least 30MM high and its top at least 30MM above the bottom of the container
- as close as possible to the domed end of the container



As can be seen in the above picture there is no transverse plate at all.

BS EN 12979 Para 5,5 Container installation:
When the vehicle is fully laden the container shall not be less than 200MM above the road surface, unless the container is adequately protected at the front and the sides and no part of the container is located lower than this protective structure



The gap between the bottom of the tank and the road was measured 180MM, there is little (if any) additional protective structure around the tank, this measurment was made with the vehicle unladen, note the BS EN calls for fully laden so one can assume this gap will decrease as the cars weight is increased.

BS EN 12979 Annex B.1 General requirements:
A protective material such as felt, leather or plastic shall be put between the container and the straps.
Neither tank has anything fitted to prevent direct metal to metal contact other than the paint they are coated in.

BS EN 12979 Para 5,5 Container installation:
The container shall have permenant fixing points to secure it to the motor vehicle or the container shall be secured to the motor vehicle by a container frame and container straps. The container shall be installed so that there is no metal to metal contact other than at permanent fixing points fitted by the container manufacturer.



The tank is wedged firmly up against the side of the chassis rail for most of its entire length, far from compliant.

BS EN 12979 Para 5,6 Installation of more than one container:
If more than one container is connected to the fuel line to the engine, the containers shall be installed so that no hydrostatic pressure build-up can take place in the fuel line and the LPG can not flow from one container into another



The "Tee Coupling" is what is connecting the output of both tanks feeding the engine gas supply, there is no evidence of non-return valves which is one approved method to prevent gas exchange between the tanks, neither does the control system fitted only allow one tank to be connected to the engine supply line at any one time, the BS EN 12979 clearly states that the use of NRV OR suitable control system for multiple tanks shall be used. We know that when one of the original tanks developed a leak the entire contents of both LPG tanks was depleted so the installation lets LPG flow from one tank to another which is not permitted.

BS EN 12979 Para 5,1 General Requirements:
All components are installed so that it is possible to inspect them and the relevant markings can be read.

One tank is difficult to read, the other tank is not possible to read any ident plate at all (if even fitted as most of the tank has been inspected with torch and mirror where direct viewing isn't possible). The Vapouriser plate cannot be read at all due to the chosen place of installation.

BS EN 12979 Para 5,7,6 Level indicator:
The level indicator shall be suitable for the container and shall be installed in the correct position to ensure it's proper operation

No level indications are fitted.

BS EN 12979 Para 5,15,2,2 Part 2:
j) Maintenance instructions for each component of the LPG system. Service intervals shall be specified

No instructions on any aspect of the system for maintenance have been supplied.

BS EN 12979 Para 6 Markings in case of retrofit installation:
An identification sticker as indicated in annex C shall be completed and attached to the structure of vehicle

No stickers other than a "Classic Swede" logo/ advert have been attached to the vehicle, even the compressed gas/ LPG sticker you see on the rear of converted cars can't be seen anywhere.

Next is the issue of tank certification, we have the serial number of the tank fitted to replace the item that split, for the other tank the serial number was taken from the sales invoice, Stako were most helpful and supplied copies of both tank certificates:





Look at the date of manufacture Aug 2002 (which also is stamped on the one tank we found the ident plate on), so both tanks are ten years old which I find rather incredible. Also on both certificates are a list of components the tanks should have fitted, as yet these items have not been inspected at component level.

The certificates also state "Mounting the tank under the vehicle is permitted only with use of anti-corrosive cover" neither tanks have any form of cover and both are located under the vehicle.

I have written this post to highlight the errors and poor workmanship found on the Ford Explorer when checked against the BS EN standards pertaining to installation of a vehicle LPG system, make your own mind up about whether you would entrust your vehicle to this individual when you take the above in to consideration, I know I wouldn't - Mike

[SonyVaio]

Sorry, I was not going to read the whole thread again but was it established if Dai is even a qualified installer?

My next question would be will that car even pass it's next MOT with all them breaches?? Basically I would see that car unfit for use on a public road until the points raised above are rectified?

I am absolutely dumbstruck at the level of incompetence and blatent disregard of installation guidlines, then there is the complete disrespect for human life and the customer due to the deathtraps Dai has created. Not impressed at all.

How on earth can he be using tanks that are 10years old? On a brand new installation you would expect nothing else than fairly new tanks (iirc he had to wait on a tank being made did he not?) and certainly less than a couple of years old. Everything about this installation STINKS! It stinks of cheap and nasty parts and very bad workmanship.

I would expect nothing less than a full appology to those guys affected and that the installs are re-done to regulation standard. Somehow I think that is not going to happen.

[deauville]

lpg-t5 you are right about gaspower they done my conversion and you couldn't find better installers anywhere in this country. helpfull should be thier middle name

[jayhl7]

Shocked!!!

[DC850]

Hi lpg-t5 thanks for updating me, had mine converted some 4-5 years ago and done some 110K on lpg since, so I my info was out of date with certs etc.

[940_Turbo]

Originally Posted by mikealder

Look at the date of manufacture Aug 2002 (which also is stamped on the one tank we found the ident plate on), so both tanks are ten years old which I find rather incredible. Also on both certificates are a list of components the tanks should have fitted, as yet these items have not been inspected at component level.

make your own mind up about whether you would entrust your vehicle to this individual when you take the above in to consideration, I know I wouldn't - Mike

Have you seen this on the Stako website?

What is the lifetime of LPG tank?

Tank’s expiry date is 10 years from the production date marked on id-platehttp://www.stako.pl/index.php?id=faq&lang=en

[Laney760]

I've only just found this thread as I was wondering why Dai's thread link to prices didn't work and took a look into this section; I was about to tell Dai I am ready to go up to Scotland to have my system fitted. As far as I knew up till this, Dai had lots of satisfied customers?

Dissapointed :-(

[classicswede]

This thread is very disapointing and full of misinformation.

I have offered to have the vehicle in question inspected by another trained LPG installer but the offer was point blank refused by the customer.

I've been around a long time and will be here for a long time to come. I have many satisfied customers some of whom are on this forum. Many of them have chosen not to comment on the threads as they don't want the backlash of the mob. There are many customer I can use as a refrance for any perspective conversion customer.

BTW I am in North Wales not Scotland.