240 General: E10 petrol for 30 yr old 240?

[jasons]

I do seem to recall E85 only being a little cheaper than 95 back in 2015 when I thought of using it in circuit racing. I think by the time you'd added in an extra 25% more fuel it may have either been equal or more expensive - vague recollections.
Hardly an incentive for people to bother with it in the UK.
Whereas in Europe its 70cents per litre as apposed to 1.60 for 95, its cheaper than LPG, so here there are incentives.

In Europe it seems fairly commonplace for people to run old barges on E85, which is why I wouldn't stress about E10 in a 240.

I plan to run in E85 in the red block 940, its HPT, hopefully with a bit of boost and adjusted for fuel it will see the right side of 200hp and equiv economy to a modern diesel, I don't know how different the 240 redblock is to the 940 but I'd have thought similar?

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by jasons

I don't know how different the 240 redblock is to the 940 but I'd have thought similar?

Depends on the age/engine code, the 940 which uses the B200/230 has low friction engines, the B23 for example in the older 240s is pretty similar to a B230 but apparently has more friction.

[classicswede]

The engine will run on almost anything you throw at it. The engine is not the problem. The fuel system and ignition are the issue. The more ethanol the more fuel needed and changes in timing.
With a simple carb engine like this the needle and jet would need reprofiling and a tunable distributor so the timing map can be optimised.

[classicswede]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Depends on the age/engine code, the 940 which uses the B200/230 has low friction engines, the B23 for example in the older 240s is pretty similar to a B230 but apparently has more friction.

The 940 never had the low friction engines. The low friction engines ended in 89 before they corrected the mistakes and increased the bearing size and moved the thrust bearing back to the rear bearing. The 940 is the medium
The B19/21/23 engine do have the biggest bearings and thickest rods all in all with the most friction.

For max power the B19/21/23 are good blocks to use as are the late B200/230 with a bit of swings and roundabouts between them

[Forg]

Originally Posted by classicswede

The 940 never had the low friction engines. The low friction engines ended in 89 before they corrected the mistakes and increased the bearing size and moved the thrust bearing back to the rear bearing.

The "low friction" references are to the B2xx engines, as opposed to the higher-friction B2x engines. Pretty much anything from 1985 onwards has those "low friction" engines, 940's included.

Now whether the friction was actually lower is a different matter ... but, 940's had the B230F or B234F or B230FT or B200FT or B200GT, and they're all in that "low friction" fambly.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by jasons

I do seem to recall E85 only being a little cheaper than 95 back in 2015 when I thought of using it in circuit racing. I think by the time you'd added in an extra 25% more fuel it may have either been equal or more expensive - vague recollections.
Hardly an incentive for people to bother with it in the UK.
Whereas in Europe its 70cents per litre as apposed to 1.60 for 95, its cheaper than LPG, so here there are incentives.

In Europe it seems fairly commonplace for people to run old barges on E85, which is why I wouldn't stress about E10 in a 240.

I plan to run in E85 in the red block 940, its HPT, hopefully with a bit of boost and adjusted for fuel it will see the right side of 200hp and equiv economy to a modern diesel, I don't know how different the 240 redblock is to the 940 but I'd have thought similar?

I think your 940 will run okay on E85. I'm guessing your motor car has Bosch FI, so the piggy back chip solution is widely available (and cheap).

Running road cars on ethanol is virtually unknown here in the UK; it would appear (from an internet search, I don't remember myself) that there were half a dozen or so gas stations selling it here about 15 years ago, but they all seem to have disappeared now. I suppose because of our high population density there isn't surplus corn to make ethanol economically, so the base price would be higher than gas or diesel (but those two attract much more excise duty and tax). I rather suspect governments in Europe will start taxing E85 a bit more if it becomes too popular, but in the meantime it is a good idea to run your old 940 on it. Fuel consumption will be about 35% higher - making it about the equivalent of around £1/litre, that is a good saving, but remember only 18 months ago gas was only £1/litre here (including the tax and duty).

I still think this would be an interesting project to write up in the 900 section - even though it would not be worth doing here in the UK I'm sure there would be a lot of interest.

:-)

PS. I did check my recollection that regular gas was only £1/litre 18 months ago:



... it looks like the average price went down to about £1.05 in the summer of 2020 - so I would have correctly remembered buying Morrison's very cheapest at about a pound. Those were the days.

[jasons]

Originally Posted by Othen

Fuel consumption will be about 35% higher -

Interesting, it will need approx 30% more fuel via the injectors to get the correct afr, I will use a wideband AFR to get it right, but given E85 produces more power than regular and on the assumption that slightly less throttle will be needed to maintain the same speed I reckoned on 25% more fuel consumption, but interested t know how you get to 35%.

That said, by the time the boost is wound up a little to see it the right side f 200hp I think it could be 35-40% more fuel as it will be fun using the torque lol

The chap who mentioned ignition timing, be great if he/she could input why they think this, given the burn characteristics, oxygen levels and octane levels of E85 I didn't see stock timing as being an issue, but all inputs welcome

[classicswede]

Stock timing will work but to get the most from it you want to advance the timing a bit to get the most of it. To fully get the most more compression is the best but but again timing curves will want changing to get the most of it.

There is a fair bit of info on the net covering the subject

[Othen]

Originally Posted by jasons

Interesting, it will need approx 30% more fuel via the injectors to get the correct afr, I will use a wideband AFR to get it right, but given E85 produces more power than regular and on the assumption that slightly less throttle will be needed to maintain the same speed I reckoned on 25% more fuel consumption, but interested t know how you get to 35%.

That said, by the time the boost is wound up a little to see it the right side f 200hp I think it could be 35-40% more fuel as it will be fun using the torque lol

The chap who mentioned ignition timing, be great if he/she could input why they think this, given the burn characteristics, oxygen levels and octane levels of E85 I didn't see stock timing as being an issue, but all inputs welcome

My only source has been the reference I posted a link to by the Swedish chap (I think it was from Turbo Bricks website). From memory the specific energy density of ethanol is 35% less than gas; it will make no difference whether less throttle is used, this is just about the volume of fuel needed to give the same amount of energy to shift a ton and a half of metal around. This is just a limitation of the physics and chemistry - I didn't make it up :-).

PS. Here is the link, I'd posted it on a different thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

From this:

Energy content by volume:
Gasoline: 34 MJ/L
E85: 25.84 MJ/L

So the difference is 32% (not 35%, he talks of 30% to just over 35% elsewhere in the article) - in practice the chap later says he got 14.3L instead of 11L per 100km, which is 30% more.

[davenicky2610]

Hi
I run our 740 on E10 that’s my daily driver and has been for 5 years. We were on holiday in withernsea when it changed to E10 and I filled it up with E10 and went to whitby and I noticed no difference whatsoever. So I ran it low and filled with E5 and I honestly couldn’t tell any difference in driving. Cold starts seem to be a bit better with E10.