Advanced driving -upside down way

[MikeGMT]

AH Grasshopper, one seeks enlightenment, one reads but does not see.

Thomas you do know the world is not flat! Way back in the mists of time a man with a telescope said 'Ayup me duck' the worlds round, of course all the naysayers wouldn't have it. We now know it to be true, or is it?

[I Feel Old]

Originally Posted by MikeGMT

We now know it to be true, or is it?

Click and learn, Mike.

[ThomasG]

I'm having this uneasy feeling that you're trying to charge me with a crime I did not commit.

If you were to quote me

"I'm in disagreement(s) with this book"

You'd be quite right.

But only until you failed to add it was my first post, and if you failed to pont out, added later: "the more I read it the less I disagree with it", quite correctly interpreted by Mike as "...the more I agree with it".

See. I opened this thread to better understand my own, driving behaviours. My own attitudes. To review these, and to alter these in an informed way.

To review.. myself.

And so I do. And as the tread progresses, I change my viewpoints.
That's not to say that at any point my attitude was " all that IAM stuff is rubbish, I won't be having it".


So if you're trying to charge me with disregarding or asking others to disregard IAMs advice- you're wrong.

If you were to charge me with wanting more than IAM provides- hands up, guilty m'lord.

If you were to charge me with attempting to teach myself subjects that IAM doesn't provide guidance on- guilty m'lord!

So yes- I am in favour of "self teaching" . but not with disregard to IAM, but with accompanying IAM.

As for IAMs advice- I simply want to know where they came from.

One of things I mentioned is the way I hold the wheel.
This is, no doubt, contrary to IAMs teachings.
Do I say "this is the right way because its mine, I thought it up myself do it stays!".

No.

I'm asking questions. I'm asking questions to obtain information that will help me to see pros and cons of both (10-2 vs 8-4).

As yet I didn't learn anything.

Most of I saw could be summed up as "this is the right way because it was said it is the right way, you can do it whichever way you like, just don't expect it to be called right way also".

Braking in turn?
Where do I say that normally braking shouldn't be performed before turn?
Normally.

I do say "practice when safe to do so, so when need arises (and it will), you are not caught unprepared".

[I Feel Old]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

Braking in turn?
Where do I say that normally braking shouldn't be performed before turn?
Normally.

Oops, that's been my misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by ThomasG

I do say "practice when safe to do so, so when need arises (and it will), you are not caught unprepared".

IMO that is fraught with danger and not something to be widely encouraged without having a sound understanding of what you are practicing.

[MikeGMT]

Rest easy Thomas, only 'avin a larf.

[MikeGMT]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

Its all very valid, about accepting something without understanding it.

So I will agree that I worded my stance a bit less... appropriately than I should have.

I will try to put it differently (will see if I succeed, its not as easy as it seems)


Now just for a second (sorry, Mike), returning to that "holding the wheel", to use it as example:

I know what's advised.
Set of information's/experiences tells me that there's better way. That's my own, subjective thinking.


The way one is to hold the wheel is not a " hard" law. Its an advice. One can do as he pleases.
I can accept that the way I do it may be wrong (don't think black/white, think shades of gray).
So I'm asking- why is that particular (10-2) method preffered? What's the background of it?

Thomas, why did I get the feeling that you was expecting a bit more on steering!

I can’t give you a definitive reason why the 10-2 hand hold came about, but I think I read somewhere it harks back to the days of big steering wheels and non powered steering. Your hands would be roughly in the middle of the wheel ready to apply force in either direction.

For advanced on road driving the two main methods are Pull Push or Fixed Grip. I prefer P/P and use it most of the time as it is safe and smooth with predictable outcomes. If you prefer, a mixture of the two can be used in the right circumstances.

PullPush gets a bad press, think L-Drivers they refer to it as ‘granny steering, Mr. J. Clarkson refers to the IAM as ‘wheel shufflers’. Most of this comes about as people just don’t know how to do it properly. It takes a lot of practice to perfect the method but I prefer it.

10-2 or 1/4 to 3 positions are the recommended hand holds because you hands are equi-distant on the wheel ready to react in either direction.

As Dibble mentioned in his post, always start with a pull, reason being to do with your arm muscles, the biceps and triceps, it’s always easier to ‘pull’ something rather than ‘push’ due to leverage.
Hold one arm straight out in front and pretend you are holding a steering wheel. Turn the wheel ‘upwards’ and as you get near the top you will notice that your shoulder starts to tilt your head. Now go the other way, a lot smoother and more comfortable.

[I Feel Old]

My take on the 10 - 2 position is that it is the optimum position for a fast reaction in the event of needing a rapid steering input. The hands are at points of maximum leverage and importantly the arms are free and unobstructed.

8 - 4 will give similar leverage (but not the same due lower position), however arm movements are more likely to be restricted/delayed.

I'd certainly acknowledge 10 - 2 is not the most comfortable over long periods.

[green van man]

Originally Posted by ThomasG

Just for clarity:

This example with lorry isn't something I just thought up on demand.

It is actually occurrence from roughly midnight of 22nd December last year. A2 motorway, speed limit 87pmh(obviously not UK, so driving on right is the rule), lorry in front and right of me suddenly changes lane. There was 30mph speed difference.
Car approaching from behind of me in third lane. Some 150 metres behind.

200metres or so space- I could stop, but it would mean very harsh braking.

What would you do?

Boot it hard if I had the grunt, brake if not.

I follow your arguments Thomas, trailing brake, left foot braking against engine, Scandinavian flick, all manovers I have practiced and used, it is largly dependant upon your engine power. Many moons ago I had an 1100cc crossflow escort mk 1, backing off for bends and you got nowhere as the acceleration was snail paces, maintaining your speed through the bend was the only way to make progress, so you learned how too, ballencing the car on brakes against engine, kept you safe and maximised speed through the bend, reading the road to determine quickest safe line through the bend. That's when I learned to drive.

Driving in adverse conditions, wet grass or snow and ice, very much the same, right gear right speed and don't touch the brakes, be prepared for it to go wrong. Wadding, first check no buggers dug a hole under the water, enter gently, accelerate smoothly, biuld a bow wave and keep pace with it. Easy when you practice regularly, know your vehicle and are confident in your abilities. Terrifying when it suddenly bites you on your unpracticed bum and that's where you get hurt or hurt others.

Paul.

[ThomasG]

Now

It is getting interesting

Mike- that's precisely the answer, precisely the information that I was after.
Thank you.

I need to digest it now, try it out, put some thought to the way I do it, again, in various conditions.
These are good points you raised...

I Feel Old..
Believe it or not- I do think of legalities and eventual responsibility for what I'm saying.

Green Van Man.
Thank you.
What I did with that lorry was smooth brake (just to buy some time in case the car behind wouldn't react), indication and lane change. Lost maybe 10mph off the clock, and I was on other side if it.

Thanks for ideas- now I know what to look for
I hope you won't be hated for it, when I come back with questions

[MikeGMT]

Glad I could help Thomas. Do you know I've just looked in the mirror and I've just started to get grey hairs the Grecian is on you.