Tricky cold starting!

[Laney760]

Hi Everybody

Hope you are all safe and well.

I've not long had a service, new dizzie cap, new rotor arm, new HT leads, new plugs amongst other things. Car starts first time almost always normally, even in my damp village but on the very cold mornings this last month she is reluctant to start. Took me 10 minutes to start this morning, I was getting a bit worried. Battery is a Bosch Silver I bought in April 2017 and starter motor sounds to be cranking over nicely, I don't think either of those are an issue.

I don't know why but she seems to like to wait a while before I try again suggestive of flooding but yet I don't think she is flooded as I don't give her any gas yet my gut feeling says fuel system not ignition is my problem.

Car has clocked up maybe 180K since new, all on the original injectors. The last time the compression was tested it was very good indeed but that was in 2015 and now she does feel tired and has clocked up 50K since then.

Where to I begin my my process of elimination please? No codes when I read them except the missing speed signal, speedo hasn't worked for a long time now.

I wish I could put her in the garage but that is full of stuff, it will take months to clear it out. Should I put a thermal blanket on the engine?

[Forrest]

Did it start alright before the service? If so, I would suspect one or more of the new service items especially if they were non-oem.

Is it the cold or the damp that’s affecting it?

Does it run ok once started without any mysterious stalls or cutouts?

Volvos are designed to start outdoors in cold Swedish winters so the garage is potentially more for your comfort than the car’s. Think of not having to scrape the frost off the windows if you need inspiration to start the clear out.

[Laney760]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Did it start alright before the service? If so, I would suspect one or more of the new service items especially if they were non-oem.

Is it the cold or the damp that’s affecting it?

Does it run ok once started without any mysterious stalls or cutouts?

Volvos are designed to start outdoors in cold Swedish winters so the garage is potentially more for your comfort than the car’s. Think of not having to scrape the frost off the windows if you need inspiration to start the clear out.

The car had a bad starting problem last October in all weathers and many parts were replaced and things tried and eventually she was ok. She was fine all through the summer this year, the service was late September so I didn't have any cold starts before the service. It's not damp that seems to be the problem, I live next to the river, it just seems to be the very cold mornings.

Edit, once shes started shes fine all day, it is simply the first very cold start of the day.

[Laird Scooby]

A couple of things to try Ellie - first is before you turn the key at all, open the throttle halfway and hold it there while trying to start. If it is over-fueling as certain things in your post suggest you may be thinking, that should get round it.

Second is if the fuel level in your petrol tank is at or below 1/4, add 2L of meths to eliminate condensation in the tank.

https://www.toolstation.com/methylated-spirit/p99550

The reason i think condensation may be a problem is that it always starts on petrol before switching to LPG and it's had all night for the condensation to drain down to the bottom of the tank where the pick up for the pump is. Once it's been used, it is constantly swirling the petrol around the system and disturbing the condensation so every start that day is ok as the condensation hasn't settled.

Third is before starting/attempting to start first thing, turn the key briefly to the start position and let go - you should hear the pump(s) run for a second or two after. Then try starting. It sounds as if you may have a priming problem and it's squirting in fuel while trying to build pressure so it's not getting enough pressure to get the rich mix while starting.

[mhuk]

Ecu temp sensor under runner 3 is what mine was. It was a nightmare to start. Cranking over and over then when it did start loads of unburied fuel out the back.

[mhuk]

Warming day started ok

[Laney760]

Cheers everyone for the responses

Dave, funny enough last night I emailed my garage and said I was going to chuck a bottle of meths in the tank again, it always seems to help, I've got a spare bottle in the estate, I'll do it in my lunchbreak today

Today was warmer and she started first time but I did do things a little differently. I engaged the clutch, I made sure that absolutely all electricals were switched off, I gave her half gas and also did what you said regards turning the key and letting go.

I'll take it one day at a time and see how it goes, Friday is going to be very cold, allegedly sleet

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Laney760

Cheers everyone for the responses

Dave, funny enough last night I emailed my garage and said I was going to chuck a bottle of meths in the tank again, it always seems to help, I've got a spare bottle in the estate, I'll do it in my lunchbreak today

Today was warmer and she started first time but I did do things a little differently. I engaged the clutch, I made sure that absolutely all electricals were switched off, I gave her half gas and also did what you said regards turning the key and letting go.

I'll take it one day at a time and see how it goes, Friday is going to be very cold, allegedly sleet

Fingers crossed Ellie! I think because you primarily run on LPG there is more chance for condensation to build in the tank and also for the fuel to go stale - warm weather it still starts, colder weather it's not volatile enough to fire when cold. Just a hunch!

See how it goes with a dose of meths and maybe the "flick the starter" treatment (turn key, let go) to help.

[Rversteeg]

I have always been a bit sceptical about condensation and water in fuel causing problems. My 940 has been running on LPG since new (now over 400K miles) and always starts on petrol. I only fill the petrol tank to a quarter when the low level warning comes up, so the petrol must always be quite warm after my daily 20 miles round trip. Never had any condensation issues, but maybe the fact that the filler cap is only taken off five or six times a year might help to keep moisture out.
I do not know what kind of LPG system you are running, but the liquid LPG injection system (not sure if available in the UK) sometimes suffers from a slightly leaking LPG injector. The few drops of LPG evaporate overnight and fill the inlet manifold with LPG gas. When you try to start in the morning, the petrol/LPG mixture is so rich that the engine is reluctant to start. During the day the period of standstill is too short for the manifold to be filled with LPG.
Mine usually starts up very easily, even after the coldest or dampiest nights. On the rare occassion it fires but does not pick up fully (probably because I let the key go too quickly) restarting is much more difficult and needs half gas to keep it running.
Rob

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Rversteeg

I have always been a bit sceptical about condensation and water in fuel causing problems. My 940 has been running on LPG since new (now over 400K miles) and always starts on petrol. I only fill the petrol tank to a quarter when the low level warning comes up, so the petrol must always be quite warm after my daily 20 miles round trip. Never had any condensation issues, but maybe the fact that the filler cap is only taken off five or six times a year might help to keep moisture out.
I do not know what kind of LPG system you are running, but the liquid LPG injection system (not sure if available in the UK) sometimes suffers from a slightly leaking LPG injector. The few drops of LPG evaporate overnight and fill the inlet manifold with LPG gas. When you try to start in the morning, the petrol/LPG mixture is so rich that the engine is reluctant to start. During the day the period of standstill is too short for the manifold to be filled with LPG.
Mine usually starts up very easily, even after the coldest or dampiest nights. On the rare occassion it fires but does not pick up fully (probably because I let the key go too quickly) restarting is much more difficult and needs half gas to keep it running.
Rob

I suspect it's the damp/humid climate that seems to be unique to the UK that causes a lot of the problems with condensation in fuel tanks Rob. I've never been to Holland/the Netherlands so i'm not aware of what the climate is like, however from the occasional times in France, Spain and Italy, i suspect the atmosphere is dryer than it is in the UK, despite the fact much of the Netherlands is reclaimed land, similar to where i live in the UK. Here it tnds to be very damp, we get a lot of sea mist from the North Sea and a strange weather phenomena known as "mizzle", combination of mist and drizzle.

Admittedly Ellie is about 50-100 miles south and more inland but generally speaking, the UK tends to be damp and humid so it's reasonable to assume condensation exists in most fuel tanks.

As for liquid-phase LPG injection, systems are only just reaching our shores and becoming available but they're all very expensive at the moment. However the symptom you describe of a leaky LPG injector can happen with vapour-phase injection as well. A good test is to manually switch to petrol about 5 minutes before the end of your journey so any leaks have time to be dispersed/burned away before the car is laid to rest for the night.

I have a couple of other ideas to suggest to Ellie but i'll see how she gets on with adding the meths first.