Correct Gearbox oil (tf-80sc) jws3309 vs 3324

[jsuln11]

Hello,

I have a 2011 (my 2012) v70 with an auto box i bought last year.

Upon buying i went for a gearbox machine flush, which after reading afterwards was a bad idea.. At least what my mechanic said..

Anyways, the oil was checked shortly after the change and of course it was not red(ish) as it should be but pretty much black. Because of it i want to do another change (flush/fill several times - around 15 liters is my goal).

However the dilemma starts and ends with the oil - which one? My model year should already have the new oil (aw1) perscribed. Since i am not rich or willing to spend 30 euros per liter, im looking for proven alternatives for this aw1 oil (from what k understand this is jws3324 type or WS oil).

My mechanic states that these newer oils are bad for the gearbox and insists on pouring the toyota type iv (jws3309) oil into it (as he does in older volvos), but i did read about it and my opinion is that volvo probably changed the oil type with a reason? If notthing else, the new oil is different in viscosity.. The gearboxes should be identical, but probably some kind of adjustment was made to them after a certain year?


Anyway, i do not have many normal priced options locally - i can get Ravenol ATF-WS, Mannol WS, Febi Bilstein, or maybe Aisin WS oil (around 50% more.expensive and hard to get these days - also toyota ws oil, but ive read bad things about it).

To shorten everything:

Does anyone of you have any experiences with either of these brands mentioned? What about the jws3309 vs jws3324 dilemma from my mechanic? Would the older, type iv oil hurt the gearbox? Im inclined to trust the manual regarding the oil.

Thanks!
Jaka

[XC90Mk1]

Originally Posted by jsuln11

Hello,

I have a 2011 (my 2012) v70 with an auto box i bought last year.

Upon buying i went for a gearbox machine flush, which after reading afterwards was a bad idea.. At least what my mechanic said..

Anyways, the oil was checked shortly after the change and of course it was not red(ish) as it should be but pretty much black. Because of it i want to do another change (flush/fill several times - around 15 liters is my goal).

However the dilemma starts and ends with the oil - which one? My model year should already have the new oil (aw1) perscribed. Since i am not rich or willing to spend 30 euros per liter, im looking for proven alternatives for this aw1 oil (from what k understand this is jws3324 type or WS oil).

My mechanic states that these newer oils are bad for the gearbox and insists on pouring the toyota type iv (jws3309) oil into it (as he does in older volvos), but i did read about it and my opinion is that volvo probably changed the oil type with a reason? If notthing else, the new oil is different in viscosity.. The gearboxes should be identical, but probably some kind of adjustment was made to them after a certain year?


Anyway, i do not have many normal priced options locally - i can get Ravenol ATF-WS, Mannol WS, Febi Bilstein, or maybe Aisin WS oil (around 50% more.expensive and hard to get these days - also toyota ws oil, but ive read bad things about it).

To shorten everything:

Does anyone of you have any experiences with either of these brands mentioned? What about the jws3309 vs jws3324 dilemma from my mechanic? Would the older, type iv oil hurt the gearbox? Im inclined to trust the manual regarding the oil.

Thanks!
Jaka

I have been here and done this with mine. I own a 2012 model so the fluid spec is simple, it’s AW-1.

Interestingly, from my understanding there was the initial TF-80SC which ran JWS3309. This was the ‘Gen 1’. This was swiftly updated got the Gen 2 which uses AW1 spec (3324).

It is entirely possible to put the 3324 into a box designed for 3309 however you:
1) can not mix 3309 abd 3324.
2) can NOT use 3309 in a Gen 2 box.

Yours will be a Gen 2 so you will need 3324 (AW1) and 3309 will not be compatible however you will need to confirm this yourself with Volvo.

The issue here is where you are getting the price of 30 euros per l. I paid less than half that from Volvo direct. And companies such as westway lubricants are considerably less than I paid.

I would imagine your best solution is to locate a local stock of AW1/3324 or to import.


I will say that based on my research I would not entertain any 3309 or alternative proposals unless it came from a experienced and reputable source (I.e. your local Volvo dealer). My understanding is that you could do considerable damage with 3309. I understand (although not 100% sure) that the viscosity of 3309 starts out the same as AW1/3324 when at end of life and gets worse from there…

[jsuln11]

Hey! Thanks for confirming my thoughts and doubts - what i thought after reading these forums.

Sadly some mechanics think there is a conspiracy and that these newer oils are bad for gearboxes apparently and that the old thick oil works for all.. Anyway, first dilemma solved, 3324 it is.

The other dilemma - volvo genuine oil is probably out od the question. Cheapest i found is 28 per liter from Skandix i think. Dealers here are pretty steep with the princing. I will give them another ring though, although i imagine things got more expensive, not cheaper.

The problem with my current situation and to your point that these oils do not mix is that i do not know which spec oil was put in my car, other than it was motul. They said "according to the car" but no details to which specific motul oi / standard.

My plan was to use around 15 liters of new oil and to dump and refill enough times to flush whatever is inside currently until its red. Hopefully both the old and the new oil are 3324 spec. I havent had issues with the gearbox until now (230k kms) and the car probably didnt have an oil change before i did it at 210k, but recently ive been getting a slight "bump" from the gearbox when going from R to D or vice versa.

The main question - both Mannol and Ravenol list the volvo aw1 number in the spec sheet. Although there are several other brands and specs listed - broader use than the genuine volvo oil.. but it should be WS / jws3324 spec. I do not know these brands or have experience with them. I was hoping someone has had some experience with these brands before. As i said, they are all pretty unknown to me and i dont wanna go buy one blindly, since im pretty sure volvo genuine oil is out of the question.

Thanks for the feedback, i appreciate it!

Jaka
Jaka

[Bonefishblues]

Originally Posted by XC90Mk1

I have been here and done this with mine. I own a 2012 model so the fluid spec is simple, it’s AW-1.

Interestingly, from my understanding there was the initial TF-80SC which ran JWS3309. This was the ‘Gen 1’. This was swiftly updated got the Gen 2 which uses AW1 spec (3324).

It is entirely possible to put the 3324 into a box designed for 3309 however you:
1) can not mix 3309 and 3324.
2) can NOT use 3309 in a Gen 2 box.

Yours will be a Gen 2 so you will need 3324 (AW1) and 3309 will not be compatible however you will need to confirm this yourself with Volvo.

I will say that based on my research I would not entertain any 3309 or alternative proposals unless it came from a experienced and reputable source (I.e. your local Volvo dealer). My understanding is that you could do considerable damage with 3309. I understand (although not 100% sure) that the viscosity of 3309 starts out the same as AW1/3324 when at end of life and gets worse from there…

Why not, out of interest?

[XC90Mk1]

Originally Posted by Bonefishblues

Why not, out of interest?

The AW1 is a world standard (3324) whereas the 3309 is an older standard. In practicality AW1 is quite a lot less viscous. It is often discussed that AW1 has end of life viscosity similar to 3309 when it is new. I won’t comment on degradation however it is a fact that the 3324 has a less viscous base.

3309 is also mineral based with anti foaming whereas 3324 has synthetic qtys.

3309 is not forward compatible with 3324 however what the impact would be would not be known by myself. It could be something as simple as not meeting fuel consumption stats, however given the quite high viscosity of 3309 over 3324 I would not use it myself.

[Bonefishblues]

Originally Posted by XC90Mk1

The AW1 is a world standard (3324) whereas the 3309 is an older standard. In practicality AW1 is quite a lot less viscous. It is often discussed that AW1 has end of life viscosity similar to 3309 when it is new. I won’t comment on degradation however it is a fact that the 3324 has a less viscous base.

3309 is also mineral based with anti foaming whereas 3324 has synthetic qtys.

3309 is not forward compatible with 3324 however what the impact would be would not be known by myself. It could be something as simple as not meeting fuel consumption stats, however given the quite high viscosity of 3309 over 3324 I would not use it myself.

I know the history & taxonomy quite well, having also looked. I asked as you were quite definitive. The key question is was there a material change in the 'box or its software between the TF that doesn't use 3309 and the newer one that does?

Plenty of 3309 uses synthetic base nowadays, incidentally.

[Tannaton]

A previously hotly debated topic....

My understanding of it is this:

Aisin Warner introduced the Gen2 TF-80 towards the end of 2010 and with that specified the later AW-1 spec (3324) which as has been shared is a more modern, fully synth, lower viscosity generally more robust fluid. A lot of the changes to the box were for economy improvements and low viscosity helps with that.

However for some reason, Volvo did not immediately switch all their vehicles on to the later fluid, most notably the Mk1 XC90 didn't move to the later fluid until MY2012 (those cars built after ~June 2011).

I think what's not disputed is that the later fluid (AW-1, 3324) is backwardly compatible with the Gen1 (pre-2010) transmissions, but there are some sources on the the 'net that say you shouldn't mix 3324 and 3309 - i.e. the change needs to be a full flush. Others say it's fine.

What's contentious is whether you can run 3309 in a later box... my view is you can, the boxes aren't substantially different and there isn't a materials compatibility issue (like some GL-5 EP manual gear oils gradually dissolve some components of classic car gearboxes). There are other, very erudite members who believe you shouldn't and I wouldn't argue against that, it's their balanced opinion based on what they've read because their isn't a definitive answer - whilst Aisin spec the later oil, we don't hear about cases of damage its caused.

I did used to say forget our debate and opinions and put in what your owners manual says. You can download it from Volvo Cars website if you've lost it. But I strongly suspect that has had some errors in it as the last V70 I worked on (2011 MY) the manual states BOT341 fluid for the TF80 equipped cars which is normally poured into the Ford MPS6 Powershift transmissions!

But what I would say with certainty is you will not go wrong with AW-1 spec, and there is no doubt that your car has the Gen2 box and that is the fluid specified by AW and Volvo. It is compatible and is the no debate, safe option. If it were my car, I'd be happy putting 3309 in as well (but a full change) but equally I wouldn't be offering to pay for a new gearbox if someone were to do that and it broke...

What you really need though above all else is a new mechanic, machine flushes are not a bad idea, and the new spec oil does not damage gearboxes.

You've clearly researched it and decided that you want to spend extra money maintaining your car over and above the Volvo service spec - i.e. have done the gearbox oil change - so why try to save a few quid on the oil? If you want to manage the costs - I would do 3x sump dumps changing 3.5 litres a time (but drive a few miles between) and that will get you to ~90% new, correct fluid fluid, and you will need around 10-11 litres.

[Bonefishblues]

Good summary, mirrors my own thoughts /\/\/\

[jsuln11]

Originally Posted by Tannaton

A previously hotly debated topic....

My understanding of it is this:

Aisin Warner introduced the Gen2 TF-80 towards the end of 2010 and with that specified the later AW-1 spec (3324) which as has been shared is a more modern, fully synth, lower viscosity generally more robust fluid. A lot of the changes to the box were for economy improvements and low viscosity helps with that.

However for some reason, Volvo did not immediately switch all their vehicles on to the later fluid, most notably the Mk1 XC90 didn't move to the later fluid until MY2012 (those cars built after ~June 2011).

I think what's not disputed is that the later fluid (AW-1, 3324) is backwardly compatible with the Gen1 (pre-2010) transmissions, but there are some sources on the the 'net that say you shouldn't mix 3324 and 3309 - i.e. the change needs to be a full flush. Others say it's fine.

What's contentious is whether you can run 3309 in a later box... my view is you can, the boxes aren't substantially different and there isn't a materials compatibility issue (like some GL-5 EP manual gear oils gradually dissolve some components of classic car gearboxes). There are other, very erudite members who believe you shouldn't and I wouldn't argue against that, it's their balanced opinion based on what they've read because their isn't a definitive answer - whilst Aisin spec the later oil, we don't hear about cases of damage its caused.

I did used to say forget our debate and opinions and put in what your owners manual says. You can download it from Volvo Cars website if you've lost it. But I strongly suspect that has had some errors in it as the last V70 I worked on (2011 MY) the manual states BOT341 fluid for the TF80 equipped cars which is normally poured into the Ford MPS6 Powershift transmissions!

But what I would say with certainty is you will not go wrong with AW-1 spec, and there is no doubt that your car has the Gen2 box and that is the fluid specified by AW and Volvo. It is compatible and is the no debate, safe option. If it were my car, I'd be happy putting 3309 in as well (but a full change) but equally I wouldn't be offering to pay for a new gearbox if someone were to do that and it broke...

What you really need though above all else is a new mechanic, machine flushes are not a bad idea, and the new spec oil does not damage gearboxes.

You've clearly researched it and decided that you want to spend extra money maintaining your car over and above the Volvo service spec - i.e. have done the gearbox oil change - so why try to save a few quid on the oil? If you want to manage the costs - I would do 3x sump dumps changing 3.5 litres a time (but drive a few miles between) and that will get you to ~90% new, correct fluid fluid, and you will need around 10-11 litres.

Hello, thanks for this elaborate response.

I agree with what you have written.. Regarding the machine change - there are lots of different opinions written on volvo groups and forums. Some say that if the car hadnt had regular oil changes (like mine, which was a full volvo history vehicle - volvo regular maintenance does not do gearbox oil changes) then supposedly by machine changes you risk worse operation due to flushing of all the residue in the internals.. Dont quote me on that, i am not a mechanic or a specialist, but there is a heated debate all around..same is with mechanics. Some.recommend the machine change, some dont. In the end its up to the user to decide i guess.

As for the oil - a full manual flush will leave quite a lot of old oil inside. My plan was doing this in several rounds to really clear up the old.oil (with some.driving in between). I think that using more liters of it will result in better quality oil left inside (compared to if i only use 7 liters of volvo oil)?

I did decide to do that only 20k after the machine change since the oil was already completely black after 5k after the change and i believe oil should be red(ish) in the end.

I might consider a compromise and try to source Aisin atf oil, which is probably what Volvo oil is + the markup because of the brand. I saw some.options at around 15 per liter. But difference between volvo and ravenoil/mannol is 8-10 vs 30 euros per liter which is a lot..

Although im also curious of these alternate brands like Mannol or Ravenol can afford to make bad fluids? I dont think so, i guess maybe just the formula and technical specs are a tad different. I saw some Russian test /comparison here on this forum in one topic and the oils vary only slightly (target temp viscosity vs volvo). But as i said, differences in numbers were quite minor as far as i can remember.


Thanks for all of your input!

Jaka

[Bonefishblues]

If a fluid meets the spec it meets the spec, however there is some tolerance in specs so they are not identical, if you see what I mean.

Lots of people have used Mannol fluids with success - in fact I cannot recall anyone reporting using a correct spec fluid of whatever brand and having an issue with it.

I'm happy with a full machine change, as is the well-known specialist I use, but as you say, some believe them to be the invention of the Devil himself...

Pays your money and gets as confused as the rest of us!