VT & Rica

[foggyjames]

If getting hands-on with car tuning has taught me one thing, it's that things can and do go wrong, even with the best will in the world. A representative of Derbyshire plod said to a friend of mine that most of their T5s have long and happy lives, but some of the engines implode randomly at relatively low mileages.

The phrase which springs to mind is "**** happens". I'd try to avoid putting too many nails in the coffin before you can be absolutely certain of what has caused a certain failure.

cheers

James

[pyaap]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

The phrase which springs to mind is "**** happens".

Indeed, but if you'd just spent £3500 of your hard earned cash on some work and the engine popped after just 3 hours, would you be happy if someone made the very same comment to you?

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I'd try to avoid putting too many nails in the coffin before you can be absolutely certain of what has caused a certain failure.

Fair comment, but what would the existing evidence and circumstances suggest to you? And to apply the very same argument, would you not say we're best off avoiding "beating around the bush" too much if the evidence seems to be pointing in a certain probable and credible direction? Whom would you say the onus lies with, to investigate the possible cause and resolve the matter then; with the customer who has just spent £3500 or the tuner who has taken £3500 from the customer?

[foggyjames]

I'd like to think that I'd see that it's possible that it's true.

Let me illustrate with a story. Chris Wiita in the US slapped a lorry turbo onto the 3.0 straight six motor in his 960. Within 15 minutes of getting it on the road, it popped the head gasket. The subsequent tear-down revealed that one of the liners was cracked (famous whiteblock problem), and this had allowed the HG to fail when the combustion pressure was increased (i.e. with boost!). The crack had probably been there for years. He's now running a T6 block, and it's holding up nicely.

It's a shame Chris (in the UK!) didn't have a wideband lambda sensor - which I would recommend to anyone with a modified turbo car. That way he'd know for sure whether or not his car was running lean. Without an AFR plot, we'll never know if bad fuel tuning was the cause. Any number of things could have caused this - many of which don't relate to VT.

I'm not trying to defend or condemn anyone - I'm just saying take it easy, please. These things can and do happen, even with the best will in the world. I don't think the evidence is sufficiently solid to draw the conclusion that VT were at fault here.

cheers

James

[Nuisance]

Originally Posted by foggyjames

If getting hands-on with car tuning has taught me one thing, it's that things can and do go wrong, even with the best will in the world. A representative of Derbyshire plod said to a friend of mine that most of their T5s have long and happy lives, but some of the engines implode randomly at relatively low mileages.

The phrase which springs to mind is "**** happens". I'd try to avoid putting too many nails in the coffin before you can be absolutely certain of what has caused a certain failure.

cheers

James

That's a lame cop out James.
I'd never get away with it in my job, and I don't see why cowboy tuning outfits could use it as a legitimate excuse.

I really couldn't stand there and tell the CEO of Luminar Liesure PLC that "Sh1t happens!" as the system I've just tuned for him has gone BANG!

What I have to say is "sorry" and pledge to get it back online immediately at my cost.
Only once it's all back and working do we discuss probable causes.

Originally Posted by foggyjames

I don't think the evidence is sufficiently solid to draw the conclusion that VT were at fault here.

cheers

James

I can't really see how my ECU could have magically mapped itself so badly that it was constantly running on it's "protection maps"

It was VT that cocked the map up with mine plain and simple. I have proof of that.



When an owner mods their own car, or takes a set of parts for a tuner to fit and map that I'd be inclined to agree with you.

If an owner goes for a way out major tune up project specified and fitted by a tuner then the owner and the tuner need to work in partnership, as they share the responsibility for the consequences.

Think about it!
If you went to hospital for some new pioneering surgery, and understood all the risks. How would you feel if on your way home your eyes fell out, and your leg dropped off, and when you contacted the hospital, you were told "well it was your risk, We cannot and will not assist you further with your problems"
I think any reasonable person would expect the hospital to do their best to help you thees things are shared responsibility. I would never get away with denying all responsibility with my clients.

I'm not saying that Chris's situation was fully of VT's creation at this stage (it may be found to be), but they were morally obliged to work with him to resolve his situation. The moment they said "we won't help" they were in the wrong.


When a customer purchases a retailed "solution" touted by the vendor as tried and tested, just as VT's hybrid package was, the vendor has a certain responsibility to ensure that the product will work, and that it's suitable for the car.
Chris asked time and time again in public, if the hybrid was suitable for his car. On each occasion he was told yes.
From the information we now have, it was obvious that VT COULD NOT have known if it was safe as they had never put this package on a Motronic 4.4 car.
I have a written admission from the tuner stating that they did not know how safe their new product was.

VT were woefully negligent in not performing adequate tests on the vehicle prior to commencing the tune up. Hamish himself clearly stated that their method of diagnosis was to check that smoke wasn't coming out of places when it should not have. Well where was that then? The glove box? The airbags? The tyres?

Both myself and Chris would have paid a further £250 for a full and proper vehicle check without worry. They should at least have performed a compression test. A pre-tune dyno diagnosis run should have been carried out. Contrary to Hamish's claims you CAN look inside an engine quite easily if you have a basic endoscope. The charge air system can be presurised and checked for leaks. Etc etc....

What is at issue from both myself and Chris's point of view is that we received a very shoddy job. My ECU was programmed terribly, and various items badly fitted. On 3 return visits when I'd realised that it wasn't running right the car was just slapped on the dyno, and I was told "look it's making 300 whp it's fine." When in reality they just couldn't be bothered, or didn't know how to sort it.

Since the 2 of us have spoken up many others have recounted their experiences. Some customers have been rather seriously verbally abused for daring to complain, some have told us they have been been physically intimidated, others have been threatened via VT's solicitors, with many just being told "we've had your money now f*** off" It's not just been one or two bad experiences. There are tens of them out there.

People have been issued with parts of questionable origin, I had all the bits off my car nicked by them, Chris was lied to about his old RICA ECU being necessary for the tune. And may have been sold some old parts as new, which maybe what has caused the failure.

What is the problem here it that this "outfit" was touting themselves as professional tuners. when clearly the service was not much different to what somebody like myself is capable of. People were being sold amateur attempts at tuning by a so-called tuner that had no previous when it comes to ECU mapping . . .Hmm you may have well had somebody that deals with travel agents tuning your car.... Oh Adam? What was your previous job?
It all looked very professional on the front end, and they were hiding behind the RICA UK name, and calling themselves Volvotuning and as such associating them with Volvo by name.

Think about it, you're new to the Volvo scene, and you fancy a "chip" so what options you got? Don? SW Autos? or Volvotuning (VT)? Well Volvotuning sounds pretty "official like" doesn't it, They were careful not to have any official Volvotuning name, but for all intents went under that name.

They sold their products as "professionally" tuned cars, well a customer should be able to have a minimum expectation of professional service when paying for such a professional product. It's funny how a simple upgrade turbo and re-map seemed to end up costing almost £3,000, once all the little extras cropped up.

Couple this with the methods of deception lies and manipulation that they, and their associates have attempted on the internet forums in order to further their business, it is of no surprise that RICA shouldn't wish to be associated with them. We saw Adam desperately trying to save RICA some embarrassment when he posed as Fatman on T5D5... Lean man would have been a more appropriate name.

I have experienced exactly what level of service they had to offer, and have since had my car described as a scrap piece of junk to other people by Hamish who seems to find no issue with going around making defamatory remarks about his customers to other customers of his. I have also stood there as he described other customers to me as "time wasters" "suckers" "idiots" and other such complimentary remarks.

I think James, you missed the point here. This whole issue isn't about Chris's engine. It's about tens of people being taken for a ride, insulted, abused, and given shoddy work and poor service. And it's about the tuner in question threatening people when they have a grievance. I'm surprised that their solicitors partook in such action as to threaten people making prefectly legitimate comment about their service, this is tantamount to intimidation.

It looks that we may well be rid of them, but it's of nobody's doing but their own, Nobody has gone out to destroy them, people have only recounted the truth. and honest opinion.

What would it have cost to be polite to the customers? and what would it have cost to "take a hit" now and again on resolving a questionable outcome? Considering they were turning over circa £200,000 P.A. peanuts!

Other tuners are far from perfect, but they behave in a much more hounorable way, probably because they didn't go to the Sadam Hussain school of buisness.

[S60-MBS]

In addition to Nuisances post..there has also been a report of Hamish taking a baseball bat to a unsatisfied customer..i think i'll wait for that particular person to make themselves known in their own time..

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

Originally Posted by S60-MBS

In addition to Nuisances post..there has also been a report of Hamish taking a baseball bat to a unsatisfied customer..i think i'll wait for that particular person to make themselves known in their own time..

AKA "The Customer Service Wand"?

Des. . .

[imac]

I'm not trying to defend anyone, and Foggy said what I meant, but more eloquently!

200k pa turnover is absolutely nothing, I'm surprised that it is not at least double that to be honest having visited the outfit and seen everything in operation. Thing is, why should a business (any business) dig several thousands into its own pocket if it is not provable that its product alone caused the damage, and that there was no underlying problem which the map amplified, causing the issue?

Obviously, it stands to reason that if the product the business sold was faulty, then yes of course they should pay.

For example: You buy a washing machine from Comet. You plug it in and set it up on a wash cycle, then go out for the day. When you arrive back, your whole house is burnt down. You automatically think it is the washing machine, because your house has been standing for X years with no problems - but how can you prove this? How can you prove it was not a fault with your electrical system that caused the fire either due to a previous problem or that the installation of the washing machine merely served to amplify a problem that was already there? If you have no buildings or contents insurance, would you expect Hotpoint to expend several hundred thousand on the basis that their product might well have been to blame?

Tuning a car is a risky business, and one must always be prepared to take risks the more you tune the car....

[Nuisance]

Just as a side question............

Those who have had work done at VT.

When the car was taken out for a "road test" did VT fit a set of trade plates to it?

[PNuT]

washing machine? not sure how a custom map compares to a washing machine but i figure its your choice on how you set your standards....

the ecu in question hasn't burnt down with the house & can be easily used as evidence.....

i would have borrowed Hamish's BBB ages ago

[Nuisance]

Originally Posted by imac

Thing is, why should a business (any business) dig several thousands into its own pocket if it is not provable that its product alone caused the damage, and that there was no underlying problem which the map amplified, causing the issue?

Obviously, it stands to reason that if the product the business sold was faulty, then yes of course they should pay.

Tuning a car is a risky business, and one must always be prepared to take risks the more you tune the car....

You're missing the point too.

It's not all about Chris's car going bang. You all seem pre-occupied with his car.