Hold off on buying your Tesla

[I-S]

Originally Posted by Grimble

PS I love steam engines, they have a mechanical soul that no item of electronics, no matter how clever, will ever attain.

I too love steam engines. As things of elegance and the development for which they stand, and as historical curios.

However, a viable form of every day transport they are no longer, of course.

As an Electronic Engineer, however, I have to disagree on the soul argument.

Elegant and clever engineering solutions exist in steam locomotives, and those who know what they are looking at see and appreciate them.

Elegant and clever engineering solutions exist in cars too, and those who know what they are looking at see and appreciate them too. (To me one of the best was the mk1 ford focus rear suspension - a clever and economical design to bring proper independent rear suspension to a lower price point C segment car. The Volvo SPA platform transverse composite leaf spring is another).

The same happens in electronics, but few people ever see or understand really good bits of electronic engineering. It might be hidden within an IC, it might be buried within the layers of a PCB, but that same engineering talent can show.

It can even show in software. More often the clever solutions and elegant bits of code are in embedded systems, rather than windows and phone apps etc - again, most people never see them, despite using things that that software runs in day after day.

The point being that the engineering skill and creativity that give rise to soul are still out there, they are just that much harder to find, and for many people get buried under the ubiquity of electronics.

I think many look back on devices like the Apple I, Apple II, Sinclair spectrum, etc as having soul and character. Certainly guitar amps are regarded as so.

"Mechanical soul" - no. By definition not. But I think "engineering soul" is alive and well.

[green van man]

The thing that got my interest with electronics when I studiEd for radio exams was the realisation that frequency was all important and controlling the frequency controlled everything, then throw in the harmonics and a whole host of other possibilities opened up.

No don't ask me how it worked, that's voodoo but adjusting capacitance and inductance raised or lowered frequency such that it could itself control other circuits.
I had of course known of this property in phase splitters where a sudo 3 phase can be obtained from a single phase,the step up to using that as a control mechanism was an eye opener.
The cleaver guys in electronics think differently to mechanically minded folk but it's all a means of controlling systems.

Paul.

[id5]

Originally Posted by I-S

Ahhh, haven't you figured it out yet?
Extensive ANPR networks and "Smart" motorways.
The government will move to road pricing. Charging depending on the road you're using, time of day and how busy it is. Look for £1 per mile along a congested segment of the M25 at peak time. Expect 1p per mile at midnight on a deserted road.
This will apply to ALL vehicles, not just EV.
….
To his generation ICE vehicles will seem like steam trains do to baby boomers.

Yes, road pricing is coming but the Smart Motorway and ANPR are not going to be the framework to deliver it for the sole reason it is costly old technology. Both were originally designed in the last century and will continue to run for the next 20 years or so but they are there to solve todays problems of traffic management, primarily accident reduction, speeding and latterly air quality. Neither technology will solve tomorrows problems such as tax revenue.

Road pricing was to be delivered by dedicated short-range communications using wireless technologies similar to RFID’s and digitally connected road side posts and in road readers to mark the cars passing. The costs to provide the network, the centralised revenue collection and revenue protection over the next twenty or so years were eye-watering. The last plan I was aware of is for each vehicle to have a black box that connects to the cellular network and reports back to the insurance companies who perform the revenue collection on behalf of the government. Revenue protection including remote disablement will be managed by multiple authorities. The beauty of the system for government is that the whole thing is paid for by consumer via the insurance companies including retrofit black boxes to earlier vehicles.

My question is will the next decade be the last Hurrah! for the ICE. Is it now time to get that fire spitting, multi-cylinder, road based ballistic missile that you have always wanted, or is it time to get an unassuming hybrid or full EV where the acceleration will leave your passenger white. I expect that the opportunity will be gone sometime in the following decade as all will be driven about nearly automatously in bland little safe boxes.

[I-S]

Yes, I agree that road pricing will be implemented that way.

I have wondered the same about whether to get some sort of special ICE or not - My family has a bit of a history (grandad had a Jensen Interceptor, because granny wouldn't let him have an E-Type, my father had an S-type 3.8, a Rover P6 3500, XJ12 5.3 and a BMW 740iL 4.4 V8) and I see the appeal.

However, my experience with the Leaf is that EVs are actually much more fun to drive - there's no lag to the throttle whether from torque converter, kickdown or turbo lag. Whenever I get back into the V70 I can't believe the lag on the throttle and take a while to adjust back to it.

In fact, we are currently in the process of deciding what to replace the V70 with. Since its mileage has plummeted since getting the Leaf (before Leaf 10-12k per year, since getting the Leaf in November it's done less than 2k) then running costs per mile aren't so significant, and the obscene mechanical complexity of current diesel (and more and more petrol) engines frighten me. At the moment our search is very wide-ranged, but includes things like the Mercedes E500 and E350 (petrol) coupes, Lexus GS250, BMW 528i (more complex as a turbo engine).

We've also considered whether to move to have something properly special for that vehicle (contenders are BMW 640i, Mercedes CL500, etc). As you say, a last hurrah.

If it was entirely down to me though, it would be a Tesla Model S, but my husband isn't ready for that.

Personally I don't think that keen drivers need fear EVs. Autonomy is a different matter, but that's not the same thing - it's another technology that is arriving at about the same time. However, bear in mind that the vast majority of cars on the road with autonomous capabilities (Level 2 as they currently are) are ICE (eg Volvo Pilot Assist, Cadillac Supercruise, Nissan Pro Pilot, etc).

With newer EVs offering stepped regen on steering wheel paddles (eg Hyundai Kona EV, Mercedes EQC, etc) then you can even pull the paddles into a corner (although it will be different, you'd actually want to jump up to max regen first, then reduce it. However, my experience is that you'd simply set a high level of regen while tackling a twisty road, and drive it on the throttle instead).

[Billggski]

The discussion of relevant running costs is really a red herring. By far the biggest cost of running any vehicle is depreciation, so the acid test is what an electric vehicle will be worth after, say, three years, or when the batteries need replacing.

[id5]

Originally Posted by I-S

...I don't think that keen drivers need fear EVs. Autonomy is a different matter, but that's not the same thing - it's another technology that is arriving at about the same time. ...

I do not think that it is keen drivers that need to fear EV's, it will be all drivers as it will be applied in specific areas and then road types. I do expect a continual widening net of little EV boxes driven by autonomous control where non-autonomous vehicles are no longer allowed.

Originally Posted by I-S

...We've also considered whether to move to have something properly special for that vehicle (contenders are BMW 640i, Mercedes CL500, etc). As you say, a last hurrah.

If it was entirely down to me though, it would be a Tesla Model S...

I fully expect the 2040, or even before, set of rules to limit output of all EV’s, acceleration will be reduced to a minimum. Ludicrous or even ‘Ooooh!’ will not be allow, just Driving Miss Daisy. You may just want to get one now...

We want to swap our XC60 next year for either a T8, Levante or a facelift Macan, unless one of the other brands brings out a better alternative. I would not like a GLE, the iPad stuck to the dash just annoys me.

[Bendolfc]

Originally Posted by Grimble

Of course the ANPR infesting the 'smart' motorways have a purpose for revenue collection in the future, will be a bit harder to enforce on many other roads, but I agree and do believe thats their ultimate aim.

The HADECS cameras used on smart motorways aren't ANPR cameras, they are just plain old digital speed cameras (although once a speeding car has been identified the backend systems will recognise the plate to issue the penalty notice) although HE have plenty of ANPR cameras on the network, commonly used for showing time to x junction etc.

Any road pricing scheme (and it will happen sooner or later) is going to need a huge new ANPR camera network covering almost everywhere.

[green van man]

We have ANPR cameras around a local town. One sprang up on a council lamppost, given this lamppost had a twin arm and 2 lanterns I thought bet those buggers have fed the lanterns from one fuse and the camera from the other whereas I had installed them to be independently fused. Went to check and yep, both lanterns off one fuse.
I disconnected the camera and reinstated the separate fusing for the 2 lanterns. I then had to install another cutout for the camera. While doing so a police car pulls up to investigate why their ANPR camera was not working.

This leads me to conclude these cameras are monitored in real time.

Paul.