Starting issue still.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Bashy

Morning Dave, thanks for the advice but, I forgot to add, before I remembered to use neutral again, when starting, I would wait until the rear fuel pump stopped whirring, there was a time (less chilly) when doing that twice, it would start straight away, but once it got Colder, that failed to worked and was back to cranking til it starts or realease and try again, it would start on the 1st Crank then. So in effect, I was doing the glow plug warming.

I didn't drop in some lucas Additive a few months back when I thought it was the tappets, but that noise is deffo that injector I swapped out, no wonder it was in ebay, ah, that reminds me, I need to ring up about servicing my spare one, thanks lol

The fuel pump priming is typically 1-2s and the glow plugs on a cold start are generally 5-8 seconds. I know some diseasels from the turn of the century onwards had automatic glow plugs that started heating as soon as the door was unlocked but even if yours has this feature, by the time you've got your pooch(es) in the car, got yourself in and settled, they would have timed out and gone cold (as far as the fuel was concerned) so would need the full 5-8 seconds again.

I could be wrong, they could be the fast heating variety but if you have a glow plug warning light, go by that as your time interval.

Still worth adding either that Lucas stuff or some ATF to the engine, each oil/filter change the first 0.5L on my Rover and the first 1L on my Volvo is ATF Volvo is 6L capacity, Rover is 4.5L), on both it keeps the engine clean inside (emissions have improved year-on-year with both), the piston rings don't stick, the hydraulic tappets on the Rover quiet (solid tappets on the 760 but still quieter) and helps cure/prevent minor oil leaks. I was looking through the MoT history on my 760 earlier for something else but i did notice that since i've owned it, apart from the first one when i'd only had it about 3 months, all the previous MoTs had advisories for oil leaks.

*** EDIT *** Just found this Volvo pdf, if you look at Pg116 is confirms what i'm suggesting about letting the glow plug light go out :

https://az685612.vo.msecnd.net/pdfs/..._EN_tp8170.pdf

Got to be worth a try!

PS - bummer about the cost of reconditioning that injector!

[Bashy]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The fuel pump priming is typically 1-2s and the glow plugs on a cold start are generally 5-8 seconds. I know some diseasels from the turn of the century onwards had automatic glow plugs that started heating as soon as the door was unlocked but even if yours has this feature, by the time you've got your pooch(es) in the car, got yourself in and settled, they would have timed out and gone cold (as far as the fuel was concerned) so would need the full 5-8 seconds again.

I could be wrong, they could be the fast heating variety but if you have a glow plug warning light, go by that as your time interval.

Still worth adding either that Lucas stuff or some ATF to the engine, each oil/filter change the first 0.5L on my Rover and the first 1L on my Volvo is ATF Volvo is 6L capacity, Rover is 4.5L), on both it keeps the engine clean inside (emissions have improved year-on-year with both), the piston rings don't stick, the hydraulic tappets on the Rover quiet (solid tappets on the 760 but still quieter) and helps cure/prevent minor oil leaks. I was looking through the MoT history on my 760 earlier for something else but i did notice that since i've owned it, apart from the first one when i'd only had it about 3 months, all the previous MoTs had advisories for oil leaks.

My rear pump goes for around 10 seconds or more, the plug light is only on for a few seconds, maybe 2 or 3 at most.

The lucas Additive made no difference for the tickety tapping sound of which would make sense as it's deffo the injector, looks like I'm gonna have to take another punt on ebay, some on there for 35 quid or so.

I have been using lucas oil for the power steering, it slows the leak at the o-ring, so it's not a bad make.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Bashy

My rear pump goes for around 10 seconds or more, the plug light is only on for a few seconds, maybe 2 or 3 at most.

The lucas Additive made no difference for the tickety tapping sound of which would make sense as it's deffo the injector, looks like I'm gonna have to take another punt on ebay, some on there for 35 quid or so.

I have been using lucas oil for the power steering, it slows the leak at the o-ring, so it's not a bad make.

That's a worryingly long time for the in-tank pump to run to prime the system!

Usually it's only 2-3 seconds for the lift pump to shift enough fuel to ensure the IP (injection pump) has plentiful fuel before attempting to start.

Besides the underbonnet fuel filter, is there another in-line or one before the in-tank pump that usually takes the form of a sock filter on the intake of the in-tank pump.
I'm wondering now if you have multiple things that by themselves won't cause a problem but combined are in fact causing the problem you've got.

The Lucas oil treatment if memory serves is a USA product and is well thought of over there. Nothing to do with the UK Lucas brand started by Joseph Lucas aka the inventor of the short circuit, intermittent wipers and self-dimming headlights.

http://mez.co.uk/lucas.html

The Haynes one linked to in there is also worth a read!

[Bashy]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

That's a worryingly long time for the in-tank pump to run to prime the system!

Usually it's only 2-3 seconds for the lift pump to shift enough fuel to ensure the IP (injection pump) has plentiful fuel before attempting to start.

Besides the underbonnet fuel filter, is there another in-line or one before the in-tank pump that usually takes the form of a sock filter on the intake of the in-tank pump.
I'm wondering now if you have multiple things that by themselves won't cause a problem but combined are in fact causing the problem you've got.

The Lucas oil treatment if memory serves is a USA product and is well thought of over there. Nothing to do with the UK Lucas brand started by Joseph Lucas aka the inventor of the short circuit, intermittent wipers and self-dimming headlights.

http://mez.co.uk/lucas.html

The Haynes one linked to in there is also worth a read!

As far as I know, there is 1 fuel Filter under the car near the fuel tank, I know cause I changed that one

I think it's the USA one I am using

[Laird Scooby]

Been having a think. If you turn the key to position 2 and let the in-tank pump stop after 10 or so seconds, if you then switch it to pos 0 and back to 2, does the in-tank pump again run for as long?

I'm thinking along the lines of weak pump/blocked filter or similar so it takes a while for the first run to build enough pressure to ensure the IP has a good supply, by which time the glow plugs will have gone cold. You wouldn't want to touch them but they'd be cold as far as the fuel goes.

If on the second attempt of turning the key to pos 2 the pump only runs for 1-2 secs, wait for the glow plugs light to go out and then try starting. If my theory is correct, we may be onto something!

[Bashy]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Been having a think. If you turn the key to position 2 and let the in-tank pump stop after 10 or so seconds, if you then switch it to pos 0 and back to 2, does the in-tank pump again run for as long?

I'm thinking along the lines of weak pump/blocked filter or similar so it takes a while for the first run to build enough pressure to ensure the IP has a good supply, by which time the glow plugs will have gone cold. You wouldn't want to touch them but they'd be cold as far as the fuel goes.

If on the second attempt of turning the key to pos 2 the pump only runs for 1-2 secs, wait for the glow plugs light to go out and then try starting. If my theory is correct, we may be onto something!

No, it takes the same amount of time each time. I dont have a clue if that 10 or so seconds is normal or not, would need some clarification on that... also dont foret i changed that filter, it was very tight putting it back together, only found out it was best to be lube up some after the event, i swore it would be removed again in my lifetime lol

Youre forgetting that when i put it into neutral, it starts so much easier, dirty fuel or not.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Bashy

No, it takes the same amount of time each time. I dont have a clue if that 10 or so seconds is normal or not, would need some clarification on that... also dont foret i changed that filter, it was very tight putting it back together, only found out it was best to be lube up some after the event, i swore it would be removed again in my lifetime lol

Youre forgetting that when i put it into neutral, it starts so much easier, dirty fuel or not.

Hmmm, variation on a theme then - try switching the igntion onto pos2, wait for the pump to stop running, off then on again, wait for the glow plug light to go off and then try cranking.

I'm not forgetting about it seeming to start easier in neutral, just leaving it out of the equation for now. One less variable to try and account for in the procedure if you see what i mean.

[Bashy]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

try switching the igntion onto pos2, wait for the pump to stop running, off then on again, wait for the glow plug light to go off and then try cranking.

Thanks, I will make a point of doing it this morning but, whilst not specifically mentioning it in my start-up procedure, waiting for the plug light is included as its a prerequisite for diesel when under a certain temp, as to what temp I don't know but I've always gone with 10C as a nice round number. I don't know if I've already mentioned this but, I'd not noticed any difference in the wait time 10C or -2C the other morning, I am relatively certain it was the normal, around 2 seconds. I wont be able to confirm that till tomorrow morning, meant to be around -1C(ish)

it's also habit ever since the AA told me (many years back, Laguna 1.9 DCi) to make sure I do it, his version was slightly modified, it was a double wait till it goes out, the plugs were getting tired back then, it's been a practised method ever since.

As a side note, I was under the impression that even though the light goes out, the glowplug relay does not switch off the glowplugs until the car has actually started, therefore still warming up even whilst cranking. As to where I heard that is anyone guess and could be totally unfounded lol

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Bashy

As a side note, I was under the impression that even though the light goes out, the glowplug relay does not switch off the glowplugs until the car has actually started, therefore still warming up even whilst cranking. As to where I heard that is anyone guess and could be totally unfounded lol

Not as far as i've ever understood it, once the timer end and the relay changes state inside the glow plug timer relay, that's when the light goes off because the plugs are no longer being heated.

A glow plug pulls ~40-50A when cold which rapidly drops to ~10-15A - multiply that by 5 plugs and they're still pulling 50+A once hot. You don't want (or need!) that additional current draw when your starter is pulling similar or higher current trying to crank the engine.

[Bashy]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Not as far as i've ever understood it, once the timer end and the relay changes state inside the glow plug timer relay, that's when the light goes off because the plugs are no longer being heated.

A glow plug pulls ~40-50A when cold which rapidly drops to ~10-15A - multiply that by 5 plugs and they're still pulling 50+A once hot. You don't want (or need!) that additional current draw when your starter is pulling similar or higher current trying to crank the engine.

Thats prob why it needs the 90AH 800a cold start (SAE)

I didn't try the glow plug idea this morning as it was 8C, I did, however, put it in N and waited the 10+ seconds for the pump to finish, whilst cranking was quicker, it still took about 6 cranks and ya can feel the slight misfire.

I have bought another injector, also have the glow plugs coming, although the ones I did get before hadn't even got a slight blemish on them, looked like they'd never been used. Im gonna hold off on the starter motor for now but will see what the cables look like when I go under the bonnet sods law its gonna get colder now, single figures, may even see a wee flurry around the 7th