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Oil types/grades/spec clarification

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Old Jun 29th, 2018, 02:01   #1
AndyV7o
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Default Oil types/grades/spec clarification

Since recently joining the Volvo world and hanging around/interfering in here I have noticed a common theme (as is with pretty much any motoring forum) of confusion relating to oil. This is compounded by a whole 'generation' of Volvo's being 'out of step' with other manufacturers regarding oil specs, and the large amount of older vehicles around.

If you ever feel confused about oil, worry about what is right or wrong, want guidance or confirmation, then please read-on!

I decided to attempt to create a thread (hopefully sticky?) which would provide firstly the basic essential info, then some type specific info, followed by anything more complicated thereafter.
I must point out Im not an expert Tribologist (oil scientist) and reserve the right to look like a prat if anything is incorrect, but have spent hours upon hours over the last few years researching engine oil from anecdotal forum waffle to official documents and all-sorts inbetween.
It seems logical and feels nice to use this in order to help people.
Anything I write I believe wholeheartedly to be accurate and in no way misleading, but welcome any challenge or correction, and if anything is found to be incorrect then that shall be amended.
Unfortunately at present, knowledge of euro5 onwards or many engine specifics isnt known to me, so ill begin with what I do know and folk can hopefully help fill in any gaps.

So, lets begin with some basic specs.
A lot of Volvo vehicles 'simply' use Acea specs, these are a European set of benchmark, baseline specs. Most manufacturer specs begin with these and build upon them, but Volvo were happy to use as-is.

Acea 'A' classification is for petrol engines.
Acea 'B' classification is for diesel engines.
Acea 'C' classification is for vehicles (primarily diesel) with exhaust after treatment beyond a basic catalytic converter. We're usually talking Dpf's here.
The Acea class numbering is a little mixed and is the most common cause of mix-ups.
A1/B1 were earlier 'fuel economy' specs which are superceeded by A5/B5, and should only be used in an engine which is designed for them.
A3/B3/B4 are 'std' specs, B4 supercedes B3. These are perfectly safe to use in engines calling for 1/5 (that can be elaborated upon later)
A2/B2 are defunct.

Api specs are kind-of irrelevant, but do bear a little relevance which we'll get to later, but what we'll say for now is newer isnt necessarliy better.

Grades, 0w30, 5w40 etc... The first number is the thickness when cold (0w, 5w, 10w etc) the second is the thicknes when hot. Oil doesnt get thicker when hot, it gets much thinner. The second number relates to the equivalent thickness of a monograde oil at that temperature, which is still much thinner than the cold thickness of the lighter weight monograde equivalent. Thus 0w is thicker when cold than 40 is when hot. So, if your engine uses 10w40 and you switch to 0w40, its the same when hot, but much thinner when cold.
W means winter and refers to the first number. It doesnt mean weight or watt.
Synthetic oil is not thinner than semi or mineral, the grades dictate this. Synthetic does not make engines leak, or increase consumption.
Engines dont 'need' semi or mineral, just the additives often used in more traditional oils. Conversely, some engines do 'need' synthetic.
Ideally use the grade specified for the engine, and certainly from the permitted range for your climate. Don't go lower with the second number (ie dont go from 40 to 30) and only ever go one grade higher, if really necessary. Thicker oil does not directly mean more protection, it can hinder flow and cause excessive oil pressure overloading the pump amongst other things.

As some peoples eyes will already be glazing over, the first, most basic bit of info can now be offered.
If this so far is complicated enough for you, then you may follow the upcoming bit of advice and be comfortable you are doing OK by your car.
Check, double check, triple check the spec required for your particular engine/year and buy oil with this approval, don't get caught up in other specs.
The important thing, and the most prevalent area where people are going wrong, is do not use A5/B5 (or A1/B1) if your handbook does not ask for it. If in doubt here, use A3/B4. A3/B4 is sufficient for most engines from late 80's through to Euro4. Older engines want 'classic' oil designed to old specs (often with a modern twist) and grades. Modern oils lack necessary ingredients for old technology and can do more harm than good!
From what I have found so far, if your engine is Euro 3 or earlier, A5/1/B5/1 is not correct and thus should not be used. It does NOT supercede and is NOT superior to A3/B4. This alone is a large part of the whole reason for this thread!

If you've had enough now, thats it. You ought to be covered. Any questions just ask.


So, onto the first rung of the more technical ladder, a brief foray into the mostly irrelevant API specs which can build on the above offering the potential of better protection, and also where a lot of people probably ought to call it a day afterwards!

Earlier a brief mention was made of newer specs not always being better.
The other week somone on here was confused that Castrol edge had a 'lower' spec than Magnatec whilst being the superior product. The specs in question were Api.
Magnatec was SN, Edge was SL...
They go in alphabetical order thus SN is 2 grades 'higher' than SL. Api specs also are designated to be backwards compatible thus each new spec 'improves' on the latter.
So wheres the rub? Why was the edge an older spec than magnatec?
After much time trying to extract info from thin-air I found one key difference; Phosphorus levels. These indicate the level of anti-wear additives, usually zddp. Zddp is a thing touted by many to be a magic substance that makes an engine invincible. This isnt the case, but it is one of, if not THE most effective wear inhibitors of the traditional variety. It is reduced or replaced in more modern oils as it is also one of THE key killers of Dpf's and to a lesser extent cats. Its replacements however dont/cant cut the mustard in certain engines using certain materials, particularly cam followers. Knackered cam followers and camshaft isnt something you want!
So, it makes logical sense that the Edge, being a performance oriented top-tier oil cannot meet SN due to extra anti-wear additives beyond those permitted for SN. It also has less other modern specs than the magnatec, also telling that there is something in there that prevents these being met.
The magnatec is a more general lubricant for more general use, as such it meets a wider range of specs. The particular formulation of edge was based around the Acea specs, with the emphasis on performance without being 'clouded' by trying to do everything. Thus edge only meets SL -because- it is better than magnatec, even though it would appear on the contrary to most people.
So......
Following on from the Acea specs, the API specs can be used as a loose indicator of offering better protection.
Furthermore, Acea specs have updates, and the parameters can change. When Volvo were specifying A3/B4 & A5/B5 oils, the current Api spec was SL-SM. The parameters of A3/B4 & A5/B5 have changed a little since then along with the Api specs. A lot of oils today meet API SN and the later A3/B4, A5/B5 which isnt the same as originally specc'ed by Volvo.
If you wish to give your car the level of protection intended at the time it was built, without any modern eco-compromise reducing it, an oil of A5/B5 or A3/B4 meeting API SL is seemingly the closest you are going to ever get.



That will conclude that for now.
Really hope this helps people cut through the confusion, nonsense and hearsay!

What I will post next is some product info that may help people cut to the chase in sourcing some decent appropriate oil.
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Old Jun 29th, 2018, 02:02   #2
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As for other stuff, im not really sure where to begin so Ill just start.

A5/B5 oils, there are seemingly plenty, in original grades (usually 0w30) and alternatives, so just refer to the above!

Older engines from early 2000's back to late '80's/early '90's tend to require A2/A3/B2/B3/B4 all of which are covered by A3/B4. If 10w40 is specified, use this, its fine, the engine was designed around it. You can use 5w40 too, probably 0w40 in a low mileage or rebuilt engine, some good examples below.

Now onto my playing field, D5 euro 3, and others calling originally for 0w30 A3/B4.
0w30 A3/B4 is rocking horse poop nowadays, I can only find 2 oils meeting that spec that are actually readily on sale in the UK! Even then its mail-order.
This is how a lot of folk are inadvertantly putting A5/B5 in when they shouldnt.
As such, I have compiled a list of readily available oils meeting A3/B4 spec and permitted viscosity in our UK climate. (Some of these oils, 0w40, 5w40 will also be ok in older engines calling for A2/B2 A3/B3/B4 as above.)
The first 3 are seemingly the more ideal oils as they combine with Api SL too.

0w30 (A3/B4/SL)
Total Quartz 9000 Energy
Fuchs Titan Supersyn Longlife

5w30 (A3/B4/SL)
Castrol Magnatec stop/start

0w40 (A3/B4/SN)
Castrol Edge
Fuchs Titan Supersyn Longlife
Mobil 1 FS
Millers XF Longlife

5w40 (A3/B4/SN)
Fuchs Titan Supersyn
Mobil 1 Super 3000 X1
Total Quartz 9000
Shell Helix Ultra
Motul 8100 Xcess
Millers XF Longlife
Texaco Havoline Ultra

This list is not exhaustive, but is what is freely and (relatively) immediately available on the open market, there are others, but ive avoided obscure/cheap/expensive/exists but cant find a vendor or listing, etc.

Last edited by AndyV7o; Jun 29th, 2018 at 02:17.
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Old Jun 29th, 2018, 09:03   #3
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Cool Thats 'andy Andy.

Morning Andy and welcome, Thanks for your posts,very interesting,I am sure there must be some confusion regarding modern lubricants in older cars.So I will peruse this again later and 'oil' try to absorb a bit more of your info.

Regards,Keith.
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Old Jun 29th, 2018, 10:15   #4
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Indeed its here to help!
So am I, ask any questions and I will answer to the best of my knowledge.
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Old Jun 29th, 2018, 12:02   #5
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Seemed a good write up thanks.

Glad you mentioned 'W' stands for winter as it really annoys me when people say its weight.
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Old Jun 30th, 2018, 21:38   #6
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Another strong A3/B4 is Petronas Syntium 7000 0w40, but make sure it has the 'cooltech' logo on the bottle. (The formulation changed in 2015, the new formulation bearing the 'cooltech' logo, the new formulation being of a stout constitution)
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Old Jul 11th, 2018, 22:53   #7
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Some snippets from other posts Ive been answering, for Q&A type reference:

Since I purchased the car 6 y/a I was using 0w30 a5/b5 recommended by volvo either castrol or shell and replacing every 5k miles.

There was oil a oil consumption roughly 0.7l in 5k miles for the last 4 years.
Not sure if this has somethings to do with volvo dealer overfilled my engine by 0.5l and I was driving with 6 l instead of 5.5 for few weeks.

Anyway I flushed my engine using Tec4 oil flush.
After that I replaced filter , flushed engine with new 5w30 for 20 min drive and drain again.
New filter and new shell oil 5w30 ab/b5 and I must say that oil looks like new till 1.5k and even now at 2.5 does't looks very dark and I'm pretty sure oil consumption is gone.

Now some people recommend to use 10w40 for few volvo models as the 0wXX or 5wXX does not maintain the minimum of 1bar oil pressure at idle.

I was also thinking to switch to ester oil like fuchs titan for example but they don't make them @ a5/b5 the only spec they have in common with recommended by volvo 0W30 castrol is API SL.


So my questions are

1. it safe to use 10W40 or 5W40 is better

2. Is safe to use Ester oil with unknown a?/b?

3. Is safe to switch to a3/b3 or a3/b4 instead of a5/b5.

Answer;
I wouldnt go 10w40, get a good 5w40 to A3/B4. Furthermore your hot oil pressure is more related to the hths value than the static viscodity on the label, so an A3/B4 oil will maintain pressure better than an A5/B5. Regardless of whether its 0w30 0w40 5w30 5w40 A5/B5 has hths of 2.9-3.4, A3/B4 has hths greater than 3.5, so, fir example a 0w30 or 5w40 A3/B4 can have a hths of 3.7, whereas both grades in A5/B5 could have a hths of 2.7, this makes a significant difference in oil pressure and hydrodynamic lubrication.

Related info from another answer to another post;
...30 or 40 dont mean a whole lot in the engine, what is most relevant is the hths value, this can be the same in either a 30 or 40, B5 is 2.9-3.4, B4 is greater than 3.5, a higher hths (within the realms of sensibility, in these instances (without going into too much technicality) within appropriate grades, ie not a 20 or 60) offers better protection, or at least a better 'buffer' of potential protection under certain circumstances.
If the engine is not designed for an A5/B5 oil it can cause problems, but if the engine was designed for A5/B5 an A3/B4 can be used without problem.


Another post, where 18k or 9k oci's were brought into question;
My answer:
Modern A5/B5 & A3/B4 oils can stretch to 18k but they are in a bit of a state by then.
12 month 10-12k is optimum, youre getting goid use out of the oil without being wasteful but changing it before it starts to lose its composure. 14-15k is ok if the car primarily does lots of long runs and high speed cruising.

Reply by another member: ...all after 2005 are 18000 miles, those before 2005 are 12000 miles so have had 13 years to knacker themselves , but they don't of course , Volvo use the best oil which holds the particles in suspension . No problem whatsoever .
I've changed 1000's of sumps full oil on D5 with all sorts of mileages and always the oil flows like water and the internals of the oil filter housings and sumps are as clean as when new ….. even on those which are 5000 miles late ! save your money only volvo knows best ..

Me: Some truth in that, though just cos the engine is clean it doesmt mean the tbn isnt depleted allowing harsh acids to attack internals, coming out like water may indicate a lack of suspended sludge, but can also be a result of the oil shearing down to a much lower grade which is less stable, reduces oil pressure and flow and allows more metal to metal contact much more readily.
Volvos own oil will be good quality and good for a long run, but also produced to a price by the blender, though that blender will most likely be castrol/fuchs/total, possibly shell, so should still have a decent make-up.





Again, just trying to provide an info source and/or a place to get into Q&A/Debate, in one place.
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Old Jul 12th, 2018, 12:52   #8
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Bit more stuff:

Joking aside, i hadn't realised there were so many different grades of oil - perhaps grades isn't the right word here - to enable "modern" engines to achieve emissions values.
Reading between the lines, it would appear accelerated wear could result, even when using the correct oil because it's so thin. That obviously wouldn't be good for the engine or the emissions!

Given the technology we have these days, is it beyond the engineers at Volvo (and everywhere else) to design engines that still use 10W40? If they've designed an engine that is so critical as to whether the "right" oil is used to produce (or not) the correct level of emissions, i think they've got it wrong.



No, engines are engineered well and a 10w40 would have no benefits. Its partly the reason that modern engines can greatly outlast old engines designed around the thicker oils of tge day.
0w is the better grade when cold, the hot value of 20/30/40/50 etc doesnt have a lot of bearing on how tge oil is behaving in the critical areas, this is where the HTHS value represents the better picture of how an oil is behaving in terms of flow, oil cushion, etc. The spec of the oil stipulates the hths and lots of 30 and 40 oils for example have same/similar hths values which means they flow and form oil 'cushion' (the hydrodynamic body of oil which the spinning journals effectively float within inside the bearing) etc just the same. Thus is why manufactures tend to use a spec rather than a viscosity these days, they still have a viscosity range as it does matter, but not as much as hths. Afaik ALL the oil specs of manufacturers and acea have a stipulated hths value, whereas a lot of specs are available in multiple viscosities.
So, yeah, a manufacturer may spec B5 and have designed the engine around it, but it could still wear faster than if a B4 was used. Similar with c specs, C3 for example is effectively a mid saps version of B4 and should in principle be backwards compatible, but, it still over (a very) long term performs slightly poorer, and the saps substitutes only work well in the right environment, some engines would/will wear excessively if C3 is used in place of B4.
If however you were to try and use a 0w30 B4 in place of the new volvo spec designed around C5 (ro20 thingy-bob 0w20) you'd give the thing problems, starving areas of oil as even though the grade is not too different the hths is massively different.

There isnt an ideal oil unfortunately, it depends on craploads of things, A3/B4 is close to udeal, but not in certain engines and is bad for dpf's, which then shifts in favour of C3 which isnt quite man-enough in terms of anti-wear ingredients for certain engines.........
The fuel savings are minimal, the environmental improvements of C specs is worthwhile.
Design an engine to work optimally with C4 and you are close to nirvana....



I've no doubt the engines are well engineered, it seems however that simply by using the wrong oil (perhaps in an emergency situation or simply picking the wrong one of a shelf full of correct containers) that the engine could soon be history, simply through lack of knowledge on the owners/drivers part.

To me, that doesn't make sense when the oils are outwardly very similar, just with different specs



No, using the wrong oil by accident or as an emergency wont kill your engine.
Over time problems could occur, it isnt guaranteed, and depends on use, oci's, engine condition and other factors.
The different specs have elements such as hths and saps which make a significant difference in how it works in and protects an engine, so some are outwardly similar, some are markedly different.
The hths isnt the be-all-and-end-all of oil, its one of many factors. Saps tend to be more important. People get wrapped-up in viscosity and misunderstand specs. The old grading system of xW xx is outdated but very hard to replace thus it remains, with the emphasis being on the spec required.
Its hard to portray things without speaking of the extreme to make it understandable



I've obviously latched onto the worst case scenario.

I get what you're saying though, sometimes you have to use the extreme as an example and without going into shed-loads of theory so that the end result becomes easier to understand, you have to skip a stage or three.




Exactly!
Oil is a complicated minefield. You can get to a stage where the more you know, the less you know, as it brings so many more questions and parameters involved!

Ive spent hours and hours over years reading this that and the other, laying awake at night mulling it over, cross referencing different things from different people to find the true middle ground, then when you think youve got it something else comes along to bu99er that up, its like snakes and ladders!
Theres still stuff I dunno, and grey areas, but without going to uni, getting degrees, and working for one of the big companies, its hard to progress further.
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Old Jul 12th, 2018, 13:05   #9
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Some engines (mostly fancy ones, non-volvo) do require very specific oils, using the wrong one can ruin such an engine within 1000 miles in worst cases.

What engines spring to mind ?

Certain Porche, probably Ferrari etc, I doubt this affects many of us here.

Engines with Nikasil-lined bores. Usually expensive ones ! I seem to recall that BMW had problems with these in the past ? By now probably mostly knackered old bangers, unless someone knows better.

VW PD diesel, 1.9 tdi with injectors driven by the camshaft. A non PD oil will wreck the head in a matter of weeks, regardless of how fancy the oil is otherwise. Obviously some special additive in the brew to cope with extreme pressures. Doesnt smell like gear oil. It stands to reason that PD oils are of a high spec and will provide good lubrication to most engines.

Sensible, knowledgeable comments please.
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