Should Volvo honour this warranty issue??

[pgh2o]

Can you give me your opinion on the following situation:



I purchased a Volvo XC90 manual gear D5 privately when 18 months old/36k miles 19 months ago. Six months ago, there were problems in 1st gear which at slight over rev went into a neutral gear setting and then you had to stop the car and start again. This was an intermittent problem but I advised my garage HR Owen (a major Volvo dealership) of the issue and they told me they could not trace the problem. Just before the 3 year service in December, I advised them that the problem was getting worse and they responded again that they could not trace the problem. Sure enough 2 weeks after the 3 year warranty expired (& within the mile limits), the gearbox failed completely and was towed to HR Owen – this time they agreed there was a problem!!. I requested that they honour the warranty in full and came back after 4 days to say that Volvo UK would contribute 50% to the cost of replacement (i.e. £2k for a £4k bill). I said I was not happy and even spoke to Volvo UK 3 times and their view was that as the problem was not highlighted to them by HR Owen (despite being noted on the cars records at HR Owen) inside the warranty period they were not obliged to do anything and the 50% was just good will. They advised me to request a contribution from HR Owen who have now offered 10% towards the cost with no obligation – another good will act!!



Hopefully the above explains all, but where do I stand legally and should I demand full payment from one or both parties. I don’t fancy a £1600 bill for something was clearly evident pre the warranty expiring and feel they should cover the cost entirely – your views will be appreciated as to my actions.



Many thanks

[Clan]

Difficult one , did you demonstrate the fault to a technician ?

[Mr-V70]

Posted in error

[pgh2o]

Hi

I told the customer services rep and they did a road test - when I drove away (they were closing the workshop and I was running late for a flight) the problem was there again - and when I returned into the country the gearbox failed that very day! ......but no, I didn't physically show them :-(

[John_C]

I'd go to trading standards about this, if nothing else they are best placed to tell you where you stand legally.

The dealer should contribute more than 10% IMO for repeatedly failing to diagnose an intermittant fault.

I would expect a 50% Volvo 25% Dealer 25% You contribution to be easily acheivable at the very very least. After some negotiation you might even get them to pay the lot but you will have to stick to your guns and be very persistant probably including getting some legal advice. Could be talking rubbish, but that's just by 0.02p

Cheers,
John

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

I take it that this was a 3 year/60k miles Manufacturer's warranty?
This will be one of those either 3 years OR 60k miles (or whatever the mileage limit is), whichever is sooner type of warranties.

Ok. You have advised as to a fault. They couldn't find it (which is a common happening).
You advise on the same fault again. They again still can't find it.

So, you have a car that is reported to be having a fault with the gearbox, but the dealer has been unable to find or trace the fault. Doesn't mean that there isn't a problem, does it.

The manufacturer's warranty expires.
You suffer a catastrophic failure of the gearbox.

What does seen remarkable is that despite two chance to find a fault the dealer was unable to, and this is followed by what you have been advised is a catastrophic failure of the gearbox!
Either the failure is not as catastrophic as the dealer is making out, that there is something else wrong which, if sorted, would solve the problem.

A shame you cannot get the car to a decent auto gearbox specialist.
I have memories of someone else (very recently) having a gearbox issue (on a V70 maybe?) who were told that they needed a new gearbox.
Auto gearbox specialist fixed it with a minor fix!!!
If someone remembers this case please post a link..

Anyway, back to the issue.
So 3 year warranty passes by 2 weeks and Volvo will offer 50% of cost.
If they could be so luck to get away with just 50%..
You would need to take the dealer AND VCUK to your local County Court as the car is obviously not fit for purpose.
To have, as they describe it, a catastrophic failure within such a short time in the life of the vehicle means that this example of their cars failed to meat what any reasonable person could expect of it.
That the failure occured such a short time outwith the makers guarantee period is even more damning of the fitness for purpose.
A manufacturer in the eec cannot limit their liability to failure because of FFP to a time period, they are still liable. However, you are required to go through the CC process to make your claim.
As mentioned, you can rope in trading standards who can help and may manage to help you avoid the Cc process...

Luck with this, but VCUK are going to be liable..

Des. . .

[shimon340]

hi there

I work in goodwill/warranty so can give opinion on this.

Your car was 1/2 way through its warranty when you bought it and it wasnt from a volvo dealer so from their point of view there isnt loyalty there. Volvo UK make take into account previous volvos owned etc when assessing goodwill but Im not sure.

The fault wasnt present for 12 months so it isnt like it was inherited from the previous owner.

Ideally, the gearbox needs to be stripped to find out what the cause is. That would help show the cause ie bearing failure, worn synchros, damaged gear teeth, sticking clutch (ie you have been engaging gear without the clutch fully disengaged), gear cables requiring adjustment etc etc.

The warranty has expired but I think there is some liability on behalf of your dealer for not identifying the problem and query warranty at the time. Intermittant faults are troublesome and difficult so better dealers could volunteer to have the car for one week etc to try to get the car to fault.

volvo have offered 50% for a second hand car, not bought from a dealer, which was ok for 12 months and then had an intermittant fault. That is pretty good as goodwill and they didnt ask how loyal a customer you were etc? I think that is pretty good. Ideally, your car needs a full diagnosis and if the fault is not gear cables, clutch etc ie is internal to the box, diagnosis needs to show exactly what has caused this. volvo have been known to extend warranties in such cases of it actually being manufacturing fault.

"by the book" there isnt a query or notification by HR Owen to Volvo but in fact do you not have invoices (and you can obtain their jobcards) showing that you had reported it to them. This, plus a further diagnosis is the way to go really. you need to show volvo that this is a product defect and not something you have caused.

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

Originally Posted by shimon340

hi there

I work in goodwill/warranty so can give opinion on this.

Your car was 1/2 way through its warranty when you bought it and it wasnt from a volvo dealer so from their point of view there isnt loyalty there. Volvo UK make take into account previous volvos owned etc when assessing goodwill but Im not sure.

The fault wasnt present for 12 months so it isnt like it was inherited from the previous owner.

Ideally, the gearbox needs to be stripped to find out what the cause is. That would help show the cause ie bearing failure, worn synchros, damaged gear teeth, sticking clutch (ie you have been engaging gear without the clutch fully disengaged), gear cables requiring adjustment etc etc.

The warranty has expired but I think there is some liability on behalf of your dealer for not identifying the problem and query warranty at the time. Intermittant faults are troublesome and difficult so better dealers could volunteer to have the car for one week etc to try to get the car to fault.

volvo have offered 50% for a second hand car, not bought from a dealer, which was ok for 12 months and then had an intermittant fault. That is pretty good as goodwill and they didnt ask how loyal a customer you were etc? I think that is pretty good. Ideally, your car needs a full diagnosis and if the fault is not gear cables, clutch etc ie is internal to the box, diagnosis needs to show exactly what has caused this. volvo have been known to extend warranties in such cases of it actually being manufacturing fault.

"by the book" there isnt a query or notification by HR Owen to Volvo but in fact do you not have invoices (and you can obtain their jobcards) showing that you had reported it to them. This, plus a further diagnosis is the way to go really. you need to show volvo that this is a product defect and not something you have caused.

While I will not dispute your knowledge experience in these matters....

I would have thought that with the ruling that a car need not be serviced by a main dealer (so long as it is still serviced in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines and with the recommended parts) it would not matter one iota where it was either serviced or bought...
Correct??
It is down to the manufacturer to prove that it hasn't been maintained in accordance with it's own schedules etc should that be the case..

That this catastrophic failure has happened just 2 weeks after one of the warranty limits (time) but not he other (mileage) puts further weight on the manufacturer (or in this case the importer - Volvo Cars UK) to rectify the issue.
That there were reported indications of a mechanical or electronic problem before the expiry of the manufacturers warranty further strengthens the customers case.
That for several years in the eec (eu) and therefore the UK all good sold are required to have a warranty. However, a manufacturer cannot be limited to liability for a fault in manufacture to just the warranty period.
There is also "fitnesss for purpose", and as has already been shown by one enterprising forum member the dealer they used to rectify the fault can be held responsible for the cost of this repair (this in the case of a failed ETM - see the ETM forum).

Contact the relevant Trading Standards for the Garage to start taking the issue further.
Should you need to go to court, then take BOTH HR Owen AND VCUK to court..

Des. . .

[shimon340]

hi

I'm a keen volvo fan but in this instance can't speak for volvo's warranty and goodwill department as I dont work there. however, I can give opinion based on the goodwill processes of other manufacturers.

First, warranty is a legal obligation as you correctly state but goodwill isnt restricted by things such as block exemption rules etc and a manufacturer can set any rules, and change them too!, as they like

Therefore, whilst block exemption means a car can be serviced anywhere without the warranty being invalidated so long as the manufacturers approved parts or parts meeting their standards are used. Further, so long as the work done and a later warranty claim are not attributable to poor workmanship by the dealer or the independent.

For goodwill, a manufacturer can set whatever rules they like including "loyalty" to their approved dealers, where the car was bought, how long it was owned etc etc. Given that Volvo have offered 50% based just on the fact the car is just out of warranty and is below 60k, is secondhand etc is in my opinion very generous. If they didnt take into account where it was serviced and loyalty (ie how many volvos owned before etc), it is even more generous.

I note a few important things with this case.

1) fault not present for 12 months since purchase (rules out first owner damage)
2) fault noted for 6 months but intermittant. Dealer should have been more proactive maybe in finding the fault. but then again I do appreciate that intermittant faults are tough. Could they have kept it overnight if it was only a problem from cold. Did they speak to volvo technical for guidance?

3) "you need a new gearbox" doesnt show what the actual fault is. Is it a clutch issue, selective cables etc? Full diagnosis and stripping of the gearbox would show the cause internally. New gearbox as the cause of the problem or a result of another problem. Full diagnosis is important in highlighting if it is volvo's fault or not ie bearing concern - the customer cant cause, worn synchros...maybe customer maybe not fully declutching or sticking friction plate on input shaft (S40 suffered from this, did the P2 cars also?) or a concern with the coating having worn causing the synchros clearance to drop, or worn gear teeth which can be customer error or also a product of worn bearings.

I've personally seen worn teeth warranty claims be denied (not by volvo, where I work... ) as the customer is blamed for having caused them due to not declutching and grinding gears. For other experience, worn bearings cause too much play in the shaft which results in hard gearshift and potential gear wear. Dealer can support the case by showing worn gears and worn bearings (ie the cause)

The intermittant character of the problem is curious. Was this only when the car was cold? after a long journey?

I've dealt with similar cases ie dealers asking for gearboxes for a "hard to select" sort of problem. We always ask for fuller checks and diagnosis including gearbox stripping. I dont believe volvo permits dealers to rebuild gearboxes. Instead, that is done by the gearbox exchange scheme ie dealer is supplied with a rebuilt unit by volvo. I think dealers can still strip to diagnose?

If fuller diagnosis is not possible, you need to get HR Owen to admit the customer reported the problem during warranty. The fault couldnt be reproduced and wasnt present at the time. Some faults are like this and dealers have a hard time with intermittant faults, understandably!

You need to push for a better diagnosis and contact an escalation manager at Volvo UK.

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

At the end of the day, pgh20 doesn't want "goodwill"..

He wants a new gearbox. That is, of course, if the issue cannot be fixed by other means...

Des. . .