Should Volvo honour this warranty issue??

[John_C]

Spot on Des, the problem is the difference between the legal route and a goodwill/concessional claim from the UK agent for an out of warranty car. Within the terms of the warranty they don't have to pay a single penny and this is where it gets messy.

The dealer gets reimbursed by Volvo for warranty work and while I don't know if this is true for Volvo I know from my own experiences that dealers from other marques can get a right rollocking if they make too many warranty claims and concessional/goodwill claims in particular don't always go down well with the manufacturer.

What they have offered is a "goodwill" payment i.e. they want to keep your goodwill as a loyal Volvo customer. If you get the car serviced outside the Volvo dealer chain and/or have bought the car outside the Volvo dealer chain, well, the less money you are going to make them so the less "goodwill" you are likely to see from them.

The legal situation and fitness for purpose is a completely different ballgame.

Sadly as with most things these days it's how far you are willing to push things which determines what you get, not how things should be.

Simple common sense tells me Volvo should agree to split the cost to have the box stripped down by an independant engineer to rule out abuse and in the event of a diagnosed premature failure should cough up the lot (including the other half of the engineer's fee) for a replacement in these circumstances.

Personally I'd be down to trading standards and then a soliciter ASAP - and make sure you keep a log of any time off work, time spent chasing the case etc and claim in court for that too if it comes to it.

Just facing the dealer down with the idea that you are prepared to go all the way with the claim may well bring around a drastic change of heart

Good luck.

EDIT: Posted this just after shimon340's post - and he explained it much better than me (damnit ) but basically I think everyone's advice boils down to the same thing - get some independant evidence and if it's on your side then go for the throat, take no prisoners, prod some buttock, etc

Cheers,
John

[shimon340]

true...but the car is out of warranty and at that time the legal obligation to fix the car is no longer the manufacturers.

components can fail at 1, 3, 15 years etc. Are they all not due to manufacturing defect? ideally, no part should break. Buyers take full ownership of their car or manufacturers end their financial obligation to the car when the warranty ends. Goodwill is just that, it offers to assist with the post warranty period and to assist young cars but there will be a time or mileage cut off.

[shimon340]

John,

interesting post. Fit for purpose requires diagnosis to show it is 100% the manufacturers fault.

gearbox stripping and investigation is needed. any independent wont do, in my experience they will report whatever the customer needs to hear. Volvo will need to assess this themselves but an independent can be present or assess the components afterwards.

your point re dealers getting in trouble for too much warranty work or too much goodwill depends on the manufacturer. In my experience it is the quality of the warranty queries which is important ie submitted too many which are external influence ie not manufacturer responsibility is the key here.

the threat of "legal advise" will have different weight with different people. It's easy to say and usually only noticed when a letter arrives. proof of this being volvo's fault is essential. SMMT and trading standards arent really a great help here. They just send facilies of the same letter asking the manufacturer to "investigate with X days"

if you wish to bypass the system of customer services, call volvo uk switchboard and ask to speak to customer services manager. if you're lucky, you will get one of the guys from HQ not the call centre....
and... time of work etc wont be touched by Volvo if this goes to court. Usually, once you have the gearbox inspected on the back of a solicitors letter to Volvo uk, then you have the answer and they will make an offer as goodwill or tell you its your fault (as shown by the diagnosis...)

if you go the legal route, their 50% offer will be retracted as you contacting a solicitor is thereby rejecting their offer.

[cumbrianmale]

Remember this was bought independantly, no contract exists between owner and dealer. They didn't sell the car. Not sure sale of goods act extends to secondhand goods either.

First port of call is Trading Standards.

[s60ben]

If the 3yr/60k volvo warranty is transferable (which I'm not sure about tbh) but I think it is, so I shall proceed on that theory; it doesn't matter one jot about goodwill, where/how the car was bought from or any other such side issues as long as the car has been serviced and looked after in accordance with the requirements of the warranty. I'm assuming also that whilst you have had the vehicle that it has been Main Dealer serviced (not that it matters too much), but it makes it slightly better in the sense that a clear duty of care exists from the dealer/manufacturers representative in which they have clearly failed

To be honest based on what I've heard, if the fault had been reported a number of times to the dealer, who is an authorised representative and repairer of the manuacturer, and they had not fixed the fault, yet the gearbox has now failed within a short period of the time from when the fault was last reported to the dealer (which it was in december) then I'm afraid Volvo UK don't have a leg to stand on IMHO , it's also not the owners problem or concern that the dealer hasn't informed the manufacturer of the problem (thats between the dealer/manufacturer)

I personally would say that a very dim view of VCUK would be taken by a judge in the county courts, especially considering the warranty has only just expired, the fault has been reported multiple times AND the vehicle is still within the 60k when the catastrophic failure occured.

Fitness for purpose in the UK does not require a "100% diagnosis of manufacturers fault" whatsoever. Goods should be of a satisfactory quality and reasonably fit for the purpose(s) that goods of that particular kind are commonly purchased for including any particular purpose asked for by a buyer.

Clearly a buyer/owner of a volvo (premium brand) expensive vehicle would clearly and more than reasonably expect that the gearbox would last considerably longer than 60,000 miles... The fact that the box has failed just outside the "warranty" period is of no consequence whatsoever.

Fitness for purpose/quality doesn't have a year/mileage limit (as one member showed with the ETM issues) It's a subjective view, normally viewed from the point of view of a judge in the county courts based on the evidence before him/her.

I would honestly advise that the owner of this vehicle (as others have already said) consult with immediate effect their local trading standards department about this issue.

I would say that should VcUK/dealer not play ball then I'd say your chances in the county court are pretty good to be honest

IF you do decide to pay the "reduced price" just to get your car back on the road in the interim, notwithstanding advice from Trading Standards, ENSURE that you pay up "Under Duress/Protest/" and mark ALL invoices/cheques (not just your copies) etc as such and also "Without Prejudice" . They cannot refuse to release your vehicle if you mark them as such either....... just in case they try that little peach.

I appreciate Shimons view on the subject, but I have no idea if he has any inkling of UK consumer law and with tongue in cheek I'd suggest that a major part of any warranty claims assistant/companies job is to ensure that the amount of time's they pay out is as little as possible!

Let's put it like this, I am not a lawyer but If I was in the same situation I'd have absolutely no qualms about putting it before the county court, and I feel I'd have a 99% certainty of a positive outcome based on what you've said.

[shimon340]

couple of quick points..

no sales of good act between volvo, the dealer and the customer because the site of sale was one private individual to another. did he ask you to sign a "sold as seen" document?

Fit for purpose - murky subject and even if this was proven.... the sale isnt by volvo to this customer

warranty has ended. There is no official record by a represensative of Volvo of having witnessed the fault durng warranty.

the warranty has ended. volvo legally (although they offer goodwill as a nice thing) has no obligation this this vehicle.

and... having dealt with many cases like this the only way forward is a full diagnosis. you cannot say "not fit for purpose" if the customer broke it. you need info to show this is volvos fault but even if it is, the warranty period is over.

lastly, I do appreciate you comments that warranty and goodwill try to pay as little as possible - at least that is what people think. It comes down to the individual at the end of the day, it's a judegment call and a considered decision. According to your job role you are meant to investigate the concern, the cause, assess evidence and when it is the manufacturer's liability you pay 100% warranty or use the various factors and info to come up with a goodwill decision. Sure, you could never pay but that isnt what you are supposed to do. If you act with integrity, you follow the guidelines and the manufacturer's rules. All cases are peer review so it isnt like one rooky wild analyst can pay nothing all year (or alternatively pay for everything!) and get away with it!!

again, given that volvo havent dug into this case much to date, they seem to be paying 50% purely due to low mileage and that the warranty ended so recently. That is real "goodwill" as there has been no check to date as to whose fault this actually is. Some people automatically blame volvo, some the dealer and some the customer. need more info to prove this and for court there must be more evidence...

good luck. If this isnt the owners fault, then Id expect volvo to help our more generously but... once the warranty ends the manufacturer has no financial responsibility to the product.

[s60ben]

Shimon,

Do you work at a UK warranty company some of your comments would leave me to believe not...

Either that or your understanding of UK consumer law is woefully inadequate IMHO.

Originally Posted by Shimon

but... once the warranty ends the manufacturer has no financial responsibility to the product.

Wrong full stop, as are many of your assumptions about the UK consumer acts IMHO.

for the sale of goods act/consumer acts to apply there doesn't have to be a "bill of sale" between the customer/manufacturer/dealer.

Nor is "more evidence" or fault investigation required for court IMHO.

The fairly simple facts are.

Vehicle under 60k
Fault reported a number of times
Box fails just outside warranty

Does any reasonable person expect their gearbox to last longer than that, of course they do....................................... The same reasonable person would have also expected that the dealer would have fulfilled their duty of care to find, diagnose and repair the fault within the warranty period. This reasonable person would take the view that as it's destroyed itself shortly after it's 3 yr service by that dealer... then they clearly failed in their duty of care.....

Thats the test.

What you keep banging on about goodwill and how the warranty has just expired is a side issue, consumer law isn't concerned with "goodwill" or an arbitrary time/mileage limit, it's concerned with protecting the consumer through the application of UK consumer law. A manufacturer cannot use the duration of a guarantee to limit consumers’ rights. Consumers are entitled to expect goods to remain of satisfactory quality throughout their reasonable life expectancy, so long as they are maintained correctly and not misused.

Very simple.

[cootuk]

What would be the cost of stripping down the gearbox and getting a professional, independant report on the likely cause of failure?

The risk here would be that, if the assesor determined it was abuse by the previous owner, then VUK could withdraw their £2k offer. Would this abuse only show up after 18 months of use by the OP?

If it was shown that there was a fault in the gearbox - and that the vehicle had been serviced by a competent person as per Volvo schedules - (is there any work done on the gearbox apart from check fluid levels?) - what would be the likely chance of a Small Claims succeeding against VUK if they refuse arbitration?

[CTCNetwork]

Hi,

Originally Posted by shimon340

warranty has ended. There is no official record by a represensative of Volvo of having witnessed the fault durng warranty.

There is a record of the customer bringing it to HR Owen and reporting a fault as they tested the car.

Originally Posted by shimon340

the warranty has ended. volvo legally (although they offer goodwill as a nice thing) has no obligation this this vehicle.

Unfortunately, due to EU regulations (in force for several years now, and in the UK for a few years - yea, the UK delayed implementation of these regs.! No surprise there!!)) the end of a manufacturers warranty is NOT an end to manufacturers liability. While no legal expert, even I know this, and am surprised you don't either. Or are you pushing the manufacturers stance on these matters??

Plain and simple, VCUK, as the official importer of these cars, has a liability in law relating to the standard and fitness for the purpose that can and will extend beyond any manufacturers warranty period.
The fact that the issue has to be addressed, initially, through the official dealer network would be standard practice as VCUK will need to get a report on the vehicle, and that from its own trained mechanics.

And as Ben says, a County Court will apply the "reasonableness" test to this, not withstanding any other factors.. "Loyalty to VCUK and their dealer network" does not factor into this calculation..

Des. . .

[JohnDale]

Hi, Re the actual failure of the box. The initial symptoms quoted would suggest a selector problem-weak detent springs/failed detents/failing selector fork. Nothing else would allow an engaged gear to go to neutral. Actual total failure was not described but if the selector was at fault there is the possibility of engaging two gears at once. I'd be interested to hear the description of the failure as it happened.(all locked up or no drive) Surely it should have been relatively easy for the dealer to diagnose this mechanical fault, Different if it was the black art of electronically controlled autos. The box should definately be stripped for evaluation.The legal side I'll leave to the experts who've already given advice except to say the manufacturer warranty is transferrable. Good luck,JD.