Follow to the 164 story; Advice please

[Nextmove]

1. Does anybody have an image of the high beam indicator bulb (or any of the dashboard warning lights, which I assume are the same bulb)? I'd rather get a bulb that fits before pulling the instrument panel out.

2. I get conflicting comments about the best ps fluid; Pentosin, Castrol TQ Dextron, and ATF type A...

Why does it matter?

I had to have a 92 BMW 3 series steering rack replaced a few years back because the previous owner used the wrong ps fluid and it ate the seals. Then the mechanic who put the new rack in found an apprentice had again put the wrong fluid in, and it had to be flushed out again. So I'm a bit nervous about the prospects of doing the wrong thing.

3. Engine oil; I get mentions of 20/50, 10/30 even 20/20. Non synthetic, I know, but it seems a bit odd to have so many options. I was going to use 20/50 Classic oil from Castrol or Halfords? Changed at least yearly or at 3-4,000 miles.

4. Auto Trans fluid for a BW 35 3 speed; Manuals say Castrol TQF or any ATF type F. Presumably definitely non synthetic and no additives?

5. And this is what I'm reasonably sure about; I should use only dot4 only brake fluid if I value the seals, I should only use genuine Volvo oil filters with non-return valve if I value the engine, and I should only use genuine Volvo coolant.

Thanks for any advice/comments/rude comments,

Leroy

[Laird Scooby]

Leroy - engine oil - 20W40 or 20W50 was originally specified but for colder climates (like north of most of the UK!), if memory serves (check your handbook, i assume it has one) you can go to 15W40 or even 10W40 and mineral oil or semi-synthetic oil will be fine.

Don't go full synthetic on the engine oil though.

As for the ATF and PAS fluid, if memory serves Type A or Type F was the original specified fluid for both.

This is backwards compatible with both :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carlube-A...e/233257297843

Don't forget to check/renew the diff oil as well. I use that ATF myself in an AW70 box (later version of the BW35) and the PAS on both my cars. In fact, i started using it for my other car that needs Honda Z-1 compatible ATF, when i doscovered it was also compatible with the others i used it exclusively across all my cars.

[Nextmove]

Thanks Laird,

my Volvo Service manual said 10/30 or 20/20, while Haynes just say Castrol GTX, but it was probably the driver's handbook that said 20/50 (I'd have to re-check), and Brooklands list Valvoline 20/50 for the 164. I'd be inclined to think the Volvo Service manual knows best, but it is an old publication and things have moved on.

I use 20/50 in my 61 Morrie but that's a simpler and older engine, and most people seem to think that's Ok for it.

It sounds from my quick googling in response to your suggestions that 20/50 might be a bit thick at operating temperature in an engine in good condition, which I fondly hope mine is. It would probably be better for a more worn engine?

And that the 20 bit is also a bit thick and will slow flow when cold starting?

So I think I'll take your advice and try for 10/40 or 15/40.

With the ATF; my Volvo Service manual says type A for steering and type F for trannie. I have no idea how or even if they differ but I'll check.

Thanks again,

Leroy

[Laird Scooby]

Where did you get your Volvo service manual from?

Type A was the "original" ATF, superceded by Dexron and then Dexron II-D on the mineral side. Type F was a modified Type A version for Ford auto boxes but again was replaced with Dexron and then Dexron II-D.

The fluid i suggested will work for both. I'd strongly suggest part-changes on both, never a flushing change on an older car, even if the miles are low.

For the PAS, get yourself a large syringe, like this one :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009LEEOVW

Empty the PAS reservoir with it and discharge it into an old jam jar, empty (clean) pot Noodle pot or similar. This makes it easy to see how much dirt is in there once it's settled.
Top up to the correct level with new fluid, start the engine and turn the sterring lock-to-lock several times to bleed the air out. Top up again to level if needed. Repeat every 1-200 miles until the fluid stays clean - usually 3-4 times then repeat ocne a year to maintain the fluids cleanliness.

For the gearbox, locate the gearbox drain plug on the gearbox sump. Take it for a drive to get the fluid warm. Park it facing slightly downhill. Use one of these to remove the fluid via the dipstick tube :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-60W-E...e/401956038200

An old clean, empty 5L plastic bottle/tub makes an ideal receptacle for the discharge. Remove the dipstick and feed the thin hose as far down as it will go, might need a little jiggling.
Arrange the outlet/discharge hose into the empty 5L container. Connect the leads to the battery and switch on, go and have a cup of coffee. Takes about 20 minutes to empty it out.
Once it's stopped pumping, switch off and remove the hoses etc, top up with a similar amount to what came out (slightly less), start the engine, let it idle for a minute or two, brake on and then select each range (1, 2, D, N, R, and P) in turn each for about 10 seconds moving the lever directly from P to the range and back to P after then move to level ground, lever back to P and remove the dipstick, wipe it dry, reinsert and remove and check the level. On the cold side, should be between MIN and MAX, top up of necessary and take for a drive.

Recheck the level on the HOT side when you get back and top up if needed.
Repeat monthly or every 600-1000 miles 2 or 3 times then repeat once yearly to maintain the fluid in good condition.

With the engine oil, as you're in a colder place, 10W40 or 15W40 should be about right. Your B30 in the 164 isn't wildly different from the engine in your Morris, both pushrod OHV engines of the non-crossflow variety. The only major difference is the 164 is probably injection, te B30 was essentially a B20 from the 144/5 with two extra cylinders grafted on so you can see the roots of it.

[Nextmove]

Hi Laird, and thanks for all that info;

My service manual came with the car, and I was told it's a bit rare. It's an official Volvo publication, green cover, pretty thick, specific to 1971 164, can't find a publication date but I assume somewhere near car production year. It's in good English with good pix, and seems very comprehensive. Better than Haynes, that's for sure.

I have syringes but not tubing, which is easily remedied. And I just ordered a pump as you recommended. Thought I had one somewhere, but no.

The car is not injected. Twin carb. It's in the changeover period to injection I guess. Unfortunately a lot of general engine/ignition/cooling spares out there seem to be labelled as suiting a B30E, but mine has to be a B30A. I assume quite a lot of basic stuff will still suit. For example I've found replacement wiper blades in a few places listed for B30E, with dates of 1971/2 onwards. I'm sure they're exactly the same as mine, but need to look at them to be sure. I'm sure I'll also find a lot of 140 bits and pieces will work, even if not listed as suiting a 164.

I'll remember your "not complete flush" advice. I seem to have a set of transmission gaskets I found in the boot but I'm not going to pull anything apart down there, and I'm not sure the set is still useable or complete. Someday I'll take the car (still not named) to a BW specialist (if such things exist up this end of the land) and ask if it needs whatever a full service entails, but apart from occasionally being a bit lumpy changing up to 3rd sometimes (as my old Murk was) it seems fine, and the fluid looks OK. I just have to master the gentle backing off movement again to get it to change up when I want it to.

Thanks again.

Leroy

[Laird Scooby]

That sounds suspiciously like the "Volvo Green Book" - the official service manual. If so, double-check the oil recomendation, it could be for very cold climates and maybe doesn't cover warmer climates like the UK although it gets pretty cold in Scotland and anywhere north of that!

It must be one of the last twin carb cars then, i believe the only UK option from 72/73 onwards was the 164E injection engine.

The contact breaker, condensor, dizzy cap, rotor arm, leads, plugs, coil etc should all be the same whether labeled for a B30A,B or E. Use ATF to top up the dashpots on the carbs, check to see what's in there now, you'll probably find (if they're not dry!) that there's engine oil in there!
Will still run acceptably on it but it runs much better on ATF (you should be able to find this in the Green Book although if it's specific to the B30E, probably not) and you'll also find your Morris (Minor?) will also run better using ATF in the dashpot.

You could also use the electric pump to empty the PAS reservoir, saving the syringe and/or tubing.

With some BW boxes, there is also a vacuum line to the gearbox from the inlet manifold. This can alter the change up points, delaying them on minimum vacuum (foot hard down) and advancing them on a light throttle (more vacuum) so check to see if yours has this vacuum tube, on the left if memory serves. Make sure the hose is secure, not perished and that the stub on the inlet manifold that it connects to isn't blocked. I might be wrong and you don't have this but it's certainly worth checking for. I remember my old 144 auto had it, the hose had broekn through age near the stub on the inlet manifold which had conveniently blocked so didn't effect the idle. Cleared the stub and used a new bit of tubing from manifold to box and normal changing was restored, improved over what i'd become used to (that was my first auto 30 something years ago) and so was the economy.

A few ATF part changes will also improve the shift quality too. Usually a servoce on the BW boxes of that era was confined to dropping the gearbox sump, changing the internal filter, adjusting the brake bands and refilling with fluid.
With the ATF i've suggested, this has quite a good cleaning action so will help remove anything lodged in the filter which will drain back to the bottom of the sump. By having the front of the car lower when you use the pump, this usually gets this residual dirt out as well. Most auto box specialists do more than just BW, they usually do at least AW (Aisin-Warner) which is the later version of the same, Toyota (because Toyota use renamed AW boxes) and a few others. Would probably pay to find an auto box specialist near you and go and have a face to face chat with them. Not many youngsters will have even heard of a 164, let alone seen one or knwo how to service an old BW35 so make sure they're a certain sort of age so they're more likely to have the knowledge and experience to do it right.
Try and find more than one in your area and visit each in turn, you might find one that is more of a reconditioning place and are intent on selling you a reconditioned box and you might also find one that is winging it - walk away if you smell cowshed confetti!

[Nextmove]

I think you're right about the green book being mainly for colder climates, though the English is remarkably good, and there is no mention of salted herrings anywhere. In fact we're in the warmest part of Scotland over here, with the Gulf Stream swinging past close by (a nearby village is famous for the palm trees along the main road. As well as being where Hamish MacBeth was made). But it does get proper cold in the middle bits and up high in this country.

The fuelling system chapter in the manual only covers twin carb, not a mention of injection, so probably they just plonked an updated cover on the earlier version of the manual.

Will follow your advice on ATF in the carbs, on the 164 and Morrie, and in fact the green book recommends it for the 164.

Thanks for the instructions on the trannie flush, and reminding me to do the diff too.

I took my old Murk 280S to the "best" BW specialist in Perth Western Australia many years ago. He tried to sell me a full rebuild (for the same price as the car had cost me). I had just wanted to know whether the sometimes lumpy change up to top was a feature of the gearbox or a sign of things falling apart. I drove it for another 15 years with no problems instead of listening to his sales pitch. I somehow think he was one of the manure men you mention.

When I later briefly had a beautiful 65 S-type Jag I was told from the outset that the auto gearbox was known in Jag circles as a clunkomatic (manuals were very rare in Oz). The only proper cure, apparently, was to put an XJ6 box in. I didn't let the sometimes clunky changes bother me, since that was apparently "normal".

[eternal optimist]

Originally Posted by Nextmove

Thanks Laird,

my Volvo Service manual said 10/30 or 20/20, while Haynes just say Castrol GTX, but it was probably the driver's handbook that said 20/50 (I'd have to re-check), and Brooklands list Valvoline 20/50 for the 164. I'd be inclined to think the Volvo Service manual knows best, but it is an old publication and things have moved on.

I use 20/50 in my 61 Morrie but that's a simpler and older engine, and most people seem to think that's Ok for it.

It sounds from my quick googling in response to your suggestions that 20/50 might be a bit thick at operating temperature in an engine in good condition, which I fondly hope mine is. It would probably be better for a more worn engine?

And that the 20 bit is also a bit thick and will slow flow when cold starting?

So I think I'll take your advice and try for 10/40 or 15/40.

With the ATF; my Volvo Service manual says type A for steering and type F for trannie. I have no idea how or even if they differ but I'll check.

Thanks again,

Leroy

My 145S (same basic engine but two fewer cylinders) didn’t like low viscosity oils, it leaked when I ran it on 10w40. I would use 20w50.

[mocambique-amazone]

20W50 and with zinc-additive, the old stuff.
You will regret otherwise.

I refuse to add oil with other viscosity into B18-b30 engines. Even if the customer wants.

Only rebuild engines by myself will get a other oil-rate.
The race-engines will "eat" 20W50 or even 20W60 fully synthetic too.

Good luck, Kay

[360beast]

Just to add that ATF type A is what's in the gearbox of the Volvo 360. It looks more like gear oil than red ATF and can be bought from frost restoration and eBay.

https://www.frost.co.uk/kroon-oil-aft-a-auto-trans-1l/