What's it worth?

[taiwan740]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

You forgot to factor in "women logic" Mark. If they think you're saving £1500/year on fuel, they'll say the Volvo is surplus to requirements so should be sold to save even more money!

Doing the LPG conversion would save a similar amount to running a smaller car but without the extra cost of a second lot of insurance (which may in fact be more than the Volvo costs to insure!), tax and MoT and second lot of servicing and maintenance costs.

Count those costs in and suddenly a second, smaller vehicle isn't quite so attractive!

Many moons ago i bought a Clio 1.2 with a similar idea in mind (i only had my Rover at the time) and besides the horrendous unreliability of the thing, it cost me 2.5 times what the Rover cost to insure, tax was slightly less as it was under 1500cc and on a run, only just scraped into a similar fuel economy.
Not to mention the fact that when i got out the other end i could hardly move, the sacrifice in comfort etc simply wasn't worth the percieved gain which in fact turned out to be a loss anyway!

Going down the LPG route means Jack would keep his present car that he knows, has sorted the niggles etc on and has proved reliable, while still giving him a good cost saving.

If it's doing 25mpg and the round trip daily is 60 miles, let's keep the figures simple and call it 62.5 miles, that's 2.5 gallons a day that it's using. Petrol is currently about £6/gallon and LPG about £2.75/gallon.

That's £15/day on petrol, assuming similar economy from LPG but to allow for any error, let's say LPG is £3/gallon, that's a saving of £7.50 a day - £37.50/week. No additional insurance costs etc and no outlay on a second smaller car. Granted he'd have to pay for the LPG conversion, whether he did it himself using either new or secondhand parts or had a new system fitted would alter the cost significantly but i would suggest, even if he had a new system fitted, it would probably be about 6-7 months payback time on the LPG conversion and after that, savings of close to £40 a week.

No contest in my view!

Worth mentioning I would never buy a 960/V90 with an LPG conversion. I think you are devaluing the car by doing it - as long as its done well and its reliable then you should be ok (especially if you are keeping it) but be aware that it can be a bit of a gamble.

Just keep the car as is would be my vote (I have a 960 Estate... my dad is "borrowing" it)

cheers

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by derek vivian

I wonder if this subject would be a good one for an article in Volvo Driver magazine? I now have have the Fill LPG app on my smartphone in readiness. But I shall have to save up first so I can have the conversion done professionally ( I have done the maths and can see it will pay fir itself fairly quickly depending how many miles driving I can do). Unless the Government will allow me a grant!!!
Thanks all round guys for an interesting something to look forward to if I don't ever want to part with my V90. Derek

You've missed the boat on the LPG grant Derek! If memory serves, in the late 90s there was a Government grant available but wasn't taken up by many as far as i know, mainly because it had more strings attached than Pinnochio!

Something along the lines of the car had to be under 3 years odl with an expected annual mileage of 20k or more, for private use only and you had to pledge to keep the car for a certain period of time after.

I'm only going on what i vaguely remember of it, it might have been even more stringent than that and i seem to recall something about penalties if you sold/traded the car within a certain timescale.

However, you're fairly well catered for on sintallers around your area - within reason anyway :

http://www.eurolpg.co.uk/

http://www.autogaspol.co.uk/blog/201...ion-in-london/

https://ecotecautogas.com/

http://www.auto-lpg.co.uk/

http://www.autogas4u.co.uk/

Seems my estimate of about £1000 wasn't far out, most of those are quoting "From £750-800" for 4-cylinder cars with a surcharge of about £100-120 ish for turbo cars, 6-cylinders are about £1200-1300 (again, "From") but they all do different systems.

Some are excellent systems but tend to be pricey (eg BRC, Prins), others are much cheaper (no names, no pack drill, read between the lines! ) and then you have the middle-of-the-road systems - pun not really intentional!

Things like the Stag/KME-Diego, AEB/Romano/Bigas/Zavoli/OMVL are all well known, well supported, reasonably priced and reliable bits of kit that will do just as well as the expensive Prins and BRC offerings but at a more cost effective outlay.
Despite the plethora of names there, only 2 manufacturers - Stag and AEB, the others that are grouped with them are different brand names using the same kit.

Don't be fooled by the brand Prinz, it's not the same as Prins, much cheaper and not such good quality.

Anyway, a few links there to sink your teeth into and start getting some prices. Personally i'd go for the largest toroidal ("donut") tank possible in the spare wheel well (bags for the spare can be bought cheaply and the spare stored in the boot) with the filler mounted on a towbar mounting bracket. Others prefer the cylinder tank behind the back seat but as mentioned previously, no good for estates and some people like the filler cut into the rear wing.

Brackets can also be made to mount the filler at or just below bumper height so the bodywork isn't cut.
I prefer the towbar mount as it can all be unbolted if necessary without leaving a huge hole in a panel and being central, it doesn't matter what side of the pump you pull up. The downside is you have to bend over to connect the nozzle and disconnect it - once connected you stand and hold the fill button on the pump until it either stops or reaches the amount you want to put in.

All down to personal preference and all likely to alter the cost slightly one way or t'other.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by taiwan740

Worth mentioning I would never buy a 960/V90 with an LPG conversion. I think you are devaluing the car by doing it - as long as its done well and its reliable then you should be ok (especially if you are keeping it) but be aware that it can be a bit of a gamble.

Just keep the car as is would be my vote (I have a 960 Estate... my dad is "borrowing" it)

cheers

Have you ever run a car with LPG and why would it devalue the car?

[derek vivian]

This is really brilliant info Dave thank you. It sounds like I would need around £1500 to get my V90 (straight 6) converted. I am also interested to know how one is alerted to the fact the LPG bag/cylinder needs refilling. What would one do if travelling, say, through France and the LPG runs low or out? Can or does the car continue using petrol until an LPG garage is found? Is there an additional meter fitted in the dashboard (I have 2 unused places for such a meter) to show the level of LPG in its bag/tank? To me these are questions that would or might help a Volvo owner keep the car and do something to reduce carbon etc. Hence my thought that Driver Magazine should start a regular page covering LPG Conversion. You could get it started Dave!! Just a thought. Derek

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by derek vivian

This is really brilliant info Dave thank you. It sounds like I would need around £1500 to get my V90 (straight 6) converted. I am also interested to know how one is alerted to the fact the LPG bag/cylinder needs refilling. What would one do if travelling, say, through France and the LPG runs low or out? Can or does the car continue using petrol until an LPG garage is found? Is there an additional meter fitted in the dashboard (I have 2 unused places for such a meter) to show the level of LPG in its bag/tank? To me these are questions that would or might help a Volvo owner keep the car and do something to reduce carbon etc. Hence my thought that Driver Magazine should start a regular page covering LPG Conversion. You could get it started Dave!! Just a thought. Derek

In my attempt to simplifiy the conversion details as much as possible Derek, i omitted the switch on the dashboard. This is sited at a convenient place and not only contains indicators to show if it's running on petrol or gas but also the tank contents. To give you an idea :



That's mine and usually the tank contents display (the 5 LEDs on the top of the switch) tend to be pessimistic so it's hard to run out of LPG, if you do most systems these days switch back to petrol and you won't really notice until you see the light on the switch.

On some systems there is also a buzzer to alert you of low level in the tank, this can be acknoledged/cancelled by pressing the switch as a general rule but each system has its own quirks - i don't want to fill your head with specific facts about certain systems for you to then find it's different on whatever system you get.

The tanks are made of 10mm thick steel so no chance of puncturing them plus have all sorts of safety valves built into the multivalve which is added to the tank at installation.

[derek vivian]

Brilliant Dave. That is exactly what I wanted to know! In your illustration it shows the 'indicator' where I have a blanking plate so that would do nicely. I assume the company doing the conversion would also fit this indicator? As for the LPG 'tank' would it go into the recess to the left of the load area in the estate opposite to where the cd unit is installed? Even if it protrudes above the 'floor' that would be useful and might mean not losing the spare wheel recess. Just another thought! Derek

[capt jack]

Don't forget that a car running on LPG will do around 10% fewer miles per gallon than the same car on petrol. My old V70 would do 30mpg on petrol but around 27mpg on LPG. And that's based on nine years and 250,000 miles experience. Also, LPG cars need petrol to run until the engine is hot, so you will still need to put some in every month. The more cold starts you do the more petrol you will need. The first 2-3 miles are usually done on petrol, so if most of your journeys are vey short there's a fair chance that the engine will never actually get hot enough to run on LPG.

LPG burns hotter than petrol so very often you need to fit a different grade of spark plug, and they will wear out faster. I found that I needed to change the plugs in my V70 every 10,000 miles. And I always used Denso single-pin copper cored plugs. Anything else, especially Bosch multi-prong plugs, just did not last.

LPG will not tolerate a less-than perfect spark, and so the plugs, rotor and dissy cap contacts (or the individual coil packs if fitted) need to be kept in tip-top condition, I replaced the plug leads every 80 to 100k miles too.

Also you need to factor in a regular filter change for LPG. There's an in-line filter just as the gas pipe reaches the engine bay. They are pretty cheap and defnitiely a DIY item. From memory the filters were around £12.

One other consideration is that LPG can cause valve seats to degrade, and for that reason some engines will need an additional top end lube system fitted. Not sure that it affects older Volvo engines, and the engine in my V70 (without a lube system) was running as well at 290,000 miles as it had done at 90,000.

Something you'll see with an LPG car is that the engine oil stays much cleaner as there's a lot less mucky rubbish produced when you burn LPG as opposed to petrol.

I'm also led to believe that the cheapest LPG (from Morrisons etc) isn't necessarily as clean as the more expensive stuff that Shell supply. The tech who fitted my system always reckoned that he could tell a "Morrisons" LPG car by the excessive sticky gunk that collected in the filter!

I've done some very careful "real world" calculations for my S90, and I reckon that at the equivalent of 22mpg on gas and doing my 55 daily mile commute I'd save £1250 a year gross - minus the incidentals.

LPG is fantastic if you do regular long runs in a biggish-engined car and an above average annual mileage - around 15,000 miles a year with each journey being 200-300 miles and it all starts to make sense. You also need to be keeping the car for a long time. When I had my V70 I was driving around 30,000 miles a year. Doing mutliple short trips and under 10,000 miles per year and you're probably no better off. At 5,000 miles a year I honestly think you'd not see any real benefit at all. Even a diesel makes no sense for such a low annual mileage. 5000 miles at 30mpg equates around 170 gallons, at £5.80 per gallon is £970 a year fuel costs. The same car on LPG would return 27mpg, and use 185 gallons of LPG at around £3.15 per gallon - around £580 a year. Add in the fact that you'd still need to buy petrol - albeit perhaps one half-tank fill-up a quarter - say £200 a year, and suddenly that LPG advantage has all but vanished. And you do need to keep the petrol fresh otherwise you risk stale petrol in a rusty tank - which will very rapidly kill an engine. It would take you 6 or 7 years to recoup your outlay, you'd lose a chunk of boot space,and have a car that was no longer original.

You do lose a fair bit of boot space. A toroidal or donut tank of 48 litres usable capacity will completely fill the spare wheel well. A cylinder tank of similar capacity would take up a fair chunk of boot space, especially in an estate car.

And many will argue that it's more difficult to sell an LPG'd car because people are wary of them. Some insurers won't insure them, and some garages refuse to repair them, and each time I took mine for its MOT I had to present it with the LPG switched off because it made life easier for the tester if he tested it as a petrol car. And there are some places that you can't take an LPG converted car. They are sometimes banned from using tunnels, and I believe that you can't take an LPG car through the Channel Tunnel.

I'm a big fan of LPG - if your requirements are right. But it really benefits a relatively small number of car owners - those who drive big mileages in big cars that they own outright and plan to keep for a lot longer than the typical 2-3 years most people keep a car. LPG is way cleaner than petrol or diesel so it's green credentials are impeccable. Even so LPG conversions are such a tiny niche market. New cars with LPG as a factory-fit are now non-existent. If every petrol car owner could benefit then there'd be many, many more LPG cars on the road, and every garage would sell it. But in fact they can't, there aren't and they don't.

Cheers

Jack

PS: LPG is arguably safer than petrol in a car crash. A ruptured LPG tank will see its contents evaporate off very quickly. A ruptured petrol tanks spills its liquid fuel over the road - and that'll stay there for ages. Also, properly-made and approved LPG tanks are immensly strong. Jack.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by capt jack

Don't forget that a car running on LPG will do around 10% fewer miles per gallon than the same car on petrol. My old V70 would do 30mpg on petrol but around 27mpg on LPG. And that's based on nine years and 250,000 miles experience. Also, LPG cars need petrol to run until the engine is hot, so you will still need to put some in every month. The more cold starts you do the more petrol you will need. The first 2-3 miles are usually done on petrol, so if most of your journeys are vey short there's a fair chance that the engine will never actually get hot enough to run on LPG.

LPG burns hotter than petrol so very often you need to fit a different grade of spark plug, and they will wear out faster. I found that I needed to change the plugs in my V70 every 10,000 miles. And I always used Denso single-pin copper cored plugs. Anything else, especially Bosch multi-prong plugs, just did not last.

LPG will not tolerate a less-than perfect spark, and so the plugs, rotor and dissy cap contacts (or the individual coil packs if fitted) need to be kept in tip-top condition, I replaced the plug leads every 80 to 100k miles too.

Also you need to factor in a regular filter change for LPG. There's an in-line filter just as the gas pipe reaches the engine bay. They are pretty cheap and defnitiely a DIY item. From memory the filters were around £12.

One other consideration is that LPG can cause valve seats to degrade, and for that reason some engines will need an additional top end lube system fitted. Not sure that it affects older Volvo engines, and the engine in my V70 (without a lube system) was running as well at 290,000 miles as it had done at 90,000.

Something you'll see with an LPG car is that the engine oil stays much cleaner as there's a lot less mucky rubbish produced when you burn LPG as opposed to petrol.

I'm also led to believe that the cheapest LPG (from Morrisons etc) isn't necessarily as clean as the more expensive stuff that Shell supply. The tech who fitted my system always reckoned that he could tell a "Morrisons" LPG car by the excessive sticky gunk that collected in the filter!

I've done some very careful "real world" calculations for my S90, and I reckon that at the equivalent of 22mpg on gas and doing my 55 daily mile commute I'd save £1250 a year gross - minus the incidentals.

LPG is fantastic if you do regular long runs in a biggish-engined car and an above average annual mileage - around 15,000 miles a year with each journey being 200-300 miles and it all starts to make sense. You also need to be keeping the car for a long time. When I had my V70 I was driving around 30,000 miles a year. Doing mutliple short trips and under 10,000 miles per year and you're probably no better off. At 5,000 miles a year I honestly think you'd not see any real benefit at all. Even a diesel makes no sense for such a low annual mileage. 5000 miles at 30mpg equates around 170 gallons, at £5.80 per gallon is £970 a year fuel costs. The same car on LPG would return 27mpg, and use 185 gallons of LPG at around £3.15 per gallon - around £580 a year. Add in the fact that you'd still need to buy petrol - albeit perhaps one half-tank fill-up a quarter - say £200 a year, and suddenly that LPG advantage has all but vanished. And you do need to keep the petrol fresh otherwise you risk stale petrol in a rusty tank - which will very rapidly kill an engine. It would take you 6 or 7 years to recoup your outlay, you'd lose a chunk of boot space,and have a car that was no longer original.

You do lose a fair bit of boot space. A toroidal or donut tank of 48 litres usable capacity will completely fill the spare wheel well. A cylinder tank of similar capacity would take up a fair chunk of boot space, especially in an estate car.

And many will argue that it's more difficult to sell an LPG'd car because people are wary of them. Some insurers won't insure them, and some garages refuse to repair them, and each time I took mine for its MOT I had to present it with the LPG switched off because it made life easier for the tester if he tested it as a petrol car. And there are some places that you can't take an LPG converted car. They are sometimes banned from using tunnels, and I believe that you can't take an LPG car through the Channel Tunnel.

I'm a big fan of LPG - if your requirements are right. But it really benefits a relatively small number of car owners - those who drive big mileages in big cars that they own outright and plan to keep for a lot longer than the typical 2-3 years most people keep a car. LPG is way cleaner than petrol or diesel so it's green credentials are impeccable. Even so LPG conversions are such a tiny niche market. New cars with LPG as a factory-fit are now non-existent. If every petrol car owner could benefit then there'd be many, many more LPG cars on the road, and every garage would sell it. But in fact they can't, there aren't and they don't.

Cheers

Jack

PS: LPG is arguably safer than petrol in a car crash. A ruptured LPG tank will see its contents evaporate off very quickly. A ruptured petrol tanks spills its liquid fuel over the road - and that'll stay there for ages. Also, properly-made and approved LPG tanks are immensly strong. Jack.

I did mention in my rough calculations Jack that allowing for errors, allow a longer payback time.

I have also mentioned the car always starts on petrol and the system changes over at preset points, usually about 30-40C coolant temp but that's coolant temp in the reducer so may relate to 40-50C engine coolant temp - not hot at that piont as hot is 88C usually.

You mention the Flashlube system for the valve seats, few if any Volvos will need this except perhaps pre-1970 models. You proved the point with your previous car that the B6304 didn't need it.

Rusty petrol tank on a Volvo? Certainly not on a 7/9xx or newer! They're plastic.

Thanks also for explaining in detail about the size of the toroidal tank, i thought i had explained how big it was but from Dereks question, obviously not. If memory serves without checking it, the tank waiting to be connected in my 760 is 650 diameter x 200 deep, think it's 80L water capacity and 56L LPG - for those who aren't familiar with LPG, you can only achieve an 80% fill of LPG to allow for expansion etc, the multivalve takes care of this for you.

A point about Morrisons LPG, i noticed when i used it, the engine never seemed to run as sweetly as other, more expensive LPG and often the economy was down. Perhaps Morrisons add a little more grease to their pumps (this is what causes the "heavy ends" or go in the filters etc because they know they'll sell a lot of it because it's cheaper.

[derek vivian]

Thanks for the comments etc Jack and Dave. I am beginning to wonder if it will be worth doing a LPG conversion on my car as I only do around 5,000 per year now I am retired. I am struggling to see many plus points! Derek

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by derek vivian

Thanks for the comments etc Jack and Dave. I am beginning to wonder if it will be worth doing a LPG conversion on my car as I only do around 5,000 per year now I am retired. I am struggling to see many plus points! Derek

I would say you're a borderline case Derek. If you go into the congestion/ULEZ zones, it's probably worth doing to avoid paying the charges but as i said before, double check this and your car will have to be on the LPG database for the exemption to take effect.

If you don't go into those zones then you would have (as indicated before) about an 18 month, perhaps a little longer, payback time on the installation. It may come down to not being worth it for you when you do your sums.

For me, it's different. Although my mileage is similar to yours, i'm using secondhand kit and doing the install myself. Cost will be in the region of about £300 so i'm expecting a payback of about 6 months.
You may find that you go out more as the fuel is cheaper and then you'll save more money in a shorter time but that is really what i call "percieved savings" - a bit like when your wife buys a pair of shoes for £50 that were previously £100 (she wouldn't have bought them at £100) and says she has saved £50 - a percieved saving because she wouldn't have bought them at the normal price and in reality has spent £50 with no saving.

My ex-wife was good at that - give her some money to get something and she comes back without the item but says she's saved £20 more than i gave her!

For a start, not possible to save more than she was given and in reality, she's spent everything i gave her and didn't get the item we needed so we have £x amount of stuff we didn't need and still have to spend £x on the item we did need in the first place!