Any Advice?

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

We haven't got as far as considering a locking tool and I didn't know you need one, and thank you!

LS - Is the workshop manual no longer made by Haynes? I see the repair manual but not the workshop manual, but can get it second hand. And does anyone know what this one is like?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Volvo-240-7...0287845&sr=8-1
Definitely need to get hold of something asap.

That doesn't look like the right sort of Haynes manual to me, have a look at these on fleabay :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_o...anual&_sacat=0

You'll need to find the right one that covers the year of the car you buy, while most things will be the same/similar, it's Sods Law that the thing you need it most for wil be different if you just buy a randomly selected book.

Also the one you want is the "Owners Workshop Manual", the others aren't really worth bothering with, especially the "Service and Repair" manuals. First though, you need to decide on what year car you're buying!

The crankshaft locking tool isn't 100% necessary if you have good mechanical experience as you will know some work-arounds. However, as you've previously stated, you're a relative novice so i would strongly advise you to take Loki up on his offer of the loan of it.

PS - go for the car with the better bodywork, engines, clutches etc are easily replaced compared to bodywork and don't need painting the right colour to look right! Likewise with electrical problems, most can be overcome relatively easily especially on the 240 which has a simple enough electrical system.

[john.wigley]

'loki' and 'L.S.' are spot-on regarding mileage, Chris. We've had several red-block engines go way over 250k without major issue. Even that is not particularly high - have a dekko at the Volvo 'high mileage club' when you've got a minute and you will see what I mean. As others have said, keep on top of the servicing and you are unlikely to experience serious problems.

It's not just Volvo that respond well to regular driving. As an aside, in the late 1970s, I worked for a local 'bus company. We used to have two Inspectors' cars, both Mini 1000s. When one was written off at three years old, no-one was quite sure if it had travelled 252 or 352 thousand miles as the odo only went up to 99,999. The reason? Being started at 04.00 and not switched off until at least 24.00, they never got cold, and they had an oil-change each week, whether they needed it or not! An extreme example maybe and the exact antithesis of the one recounted by 'L.S.', where less than ideal operating conditions resulted in premature engine failure.

Regards, John.

[Bob Meadows]

I have just read your first post regarding the main priorities you and your son want for his leaning process: ~ the advice so far from members is spot on so no point in repeating. I’m sure that you will be able to make a very informed decision when the time comes to open the wallet!
One point that is worth considering in all of this is the fact that whilst the initial enthusiasm runs high but when you get down to the real work load then frustration can certainly set in- quite a few classic cars have been left in a worse state because of this. As mentioned by a few members now most if not all problems relating to mechanical/fittings can be repaired on an ongoing basis.
The points made regarding “ Rust “ can easily lead to a very extended restoration together with a car being off the road for long periods- plus the important factors of completing the repairs to a descent standard to ensure these cars have another life ! The cost to have such repairs done by others will need careful planning in a number of ways- If you can weld or are willing to lean then you will have more control on this: ~ all part and parcel of the leaning process for your son but it does need a lot of staying power if the project stops becoming enjoyable leading to frustration. We all look forward to seeing the purchase!!
AS a suggestion regarding viewing cars in faraway places- you could request a joint visit from any local members within that given location – most classic car owners seem more than willing to add an extra pair of eyes & advice- I’ve just volunteered for the Lancashire area !
Good Luck—Bob.

[Angie]

I'm a rare visitor here nowadays but I've seen quite a few of the replies and they confirm the reason I joined in the first place, many years ago, the need for advice and information about my newly acquired Volvo. People were unfailingly helpful then, as I see they are still.

My experience, which supports other opinions, is check the structure - my biggest expenses have related to bodywork - rear arches both sides (around £500 I seem to remember, might have been a bit more, and repairing the area around the windscreen, similar cost). Last year, for the first time in my almost ten years of ownership, some structural welding was needed, but after some 90,000 miles in my ownership, and in the salty Cornish air, it was expected sooner or later.

My Torslanda has the advantage - to me- of manual windows and mirrors, but otherwise is identical to my friends' SE, as for some reason it has the upgraded interior trim rather than the rather basic but still hard-wearing and comfortable style usually fitted to Torslandas. I'm entirely happy with the 2ltr engine even in this hilly part of the country, and on holidays have consistently achieved 30-32mpg, locally probably nearer to 28, not bad for a 27-year-old car which has covered nearly 220,000 miles. I've had a few electrical problems along the way, resolved by replacement of various sensors, culminating in a new MAF sensor, and I've followed advice about carrying a spare fuel pump relay. Tailgate wiring has failed twice, I have dogs so the tailgate is used frequently, but is inexpensive and quick to replace.

I wish you luck in your search. From my experience the latest models are smoother and quieter than earlier ones, presumably because as well as electronic ignition they have improved sound deadening. I hope to keep mine on the road provided I can afford the structural repairs - my garage has always recommended spraying the underside annually with old engine oil but unfortunately I haven't been able to find anyone who will do it, mainly because of the resultant mess! I have had the chassis Waxoyled though and that has probably stemmed some decay.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Angie

From my experience the latest models are smoother and quieter than earlier ones, presumably because as well as electronic ignition they have improved sound deadening.

A valid point and not just because of the electronic ignition Angie. Around 1986/7, Volvo revamped the B21/23 engines into the B200/230 revising many items throught the whole engine which made them smoother and quieter, more efficient (power and economy boosts) and generally more of a "new" engine than the original B21 was compared to the older B20 of the 140 series where the major change was a new cylinder head and OHC (instead of OHV) valve arrangement.
The B2x0 took things further and revised many less obvious parts to refine it which is why the later models seem smoother, quieter etc.

Of course improved soundproofing etc also helps and that can be retro-fitted to older models and can make a huge difference.

[Chris152]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Am i right in understanding the intermittent wipe and heated rear window don't appear to work on the car with the speedo problem?

First question is, why do you think the HRW isn't working? Is it because the switch doesn't light up when pressed?

Apparently the live feed gets as far as the element, but it doesn't work - just going by what the seller says - apparently it may be an earthing issue?
LS - 'Clutch judder can be caused by many things, the common cause is contamination by oil which generally comes from the rear crank oil seal, meaning a flywheel off job to renew said seal.
However it could equally be caused by a leaky rocker cover gasket but worn engine and/or gearbox mounts can also create clutch judder.'
That's interesting - on the newer/ cheaper car (1990) there's some weeping from the rocker cover - maybe that's the cause of its judder. Sounds rather easier than flywheel off!
LS - 'Going back briefly to the speedo problem, the mileage is probably higher than would first appear as the mileage is unlikely to be recorded if the speedo isn't working.'
That's on the older (1985) more expensive car - I've seen pics of the service book and the mileage up to last year tallies with the final low mileage, so should be good.

In relation to you second post, how about this manual?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Owners-Work...0287845&sr=8-5
- as far as I can see, they all start in the same year but some go up to 1993, others stop sooner (presumably published while they were still being made?)
Thanks for your thorough reply!

[Chris152]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The crankshaft locking tool isn't 100% necessary if you have good mechanical experience as you will know some work-arounds. However, as you've previously stated, you're a relative novice so i would strongly advise you to take Loki up on his offer of the loan of it.

That, and a full time qualified assistant to help us.

Thanks John - we had a V70 from about 2007 which covered 300 000+ miles, it was used and serviced regularly and was still going when the ex got rid of it last year as lots of little things were going wrong. One rather embarrassing question - what's a red block engine - was it in all 240s, or just some? Keeps coming up and I've searched, but maybe in the wrong places.

[Chris152]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

A valid point and not just because of the electronic ignition Angie. Around 1986/7, Volvo revamped the B21/23 engines into the B200/230 revising many items throught the whole engine which made them smoother and quieter, more efficient (power and economy boosts) and generally more of a "new" engine than the original B21 was compared to the older B20 of the 140 series where the major change was a new cylinder head and OHC (instead of OHV) valve arrangement.
The B2x0 took things further and revised many less obvious parts to refine it which is why the later models seem smoother, quieter etc.

Does that - together with better rust-proofing - make the case for the 1990 car over the 1985 (carb) car?
Have to say Angie, those mpg figures in Cornwall are inspiring on a 2.0 based on what I've read - my hope is that he'll see both driving frugally and getting the car running efficiently as a goal from which he'll learn. We head to Cornwall pretty often and fuel consumption moving around down there's different even to here (South Wales).

[Chris152]

Originally Posted by Bob Meadows

One point that is worth considering in all of this is the fact that whilst the initial enthusiasm runs high but when you get down to the real work load then frustration can certainly set in- quite a few classic cars have been left in a worse state because of this. As mentioned by a few members now most if not all problems relating to mechanical/fittings can be repaired on an ongoing basis.
The points made regarding “ Rust “ can easily lead to a very extended restoration together with a car being off the road for long periods- plus the important factors of completing the repairs to a descent standard to ensure these cars have another life ! The cost to have such repairs done by others will need careful planning in a number of ways- If you can weld or are willing to lean then you will have more control on this: ~ all part and parcel of the leaning process for your son but it does need a lot of staying power if the project stops becoming enjoyable leading to frustration. We all look forward to seeing the purchase!!

Fair points, Bob. Over the years I've often chatted with friends about the olden days when we could fix our own cars and didn't need computers to do it, but always ended on being happy that we didn't any more. My memories are of endless fiddling and wondering what the fault could be, grazed knuckles, failed attempts to get it sorted. That said, we'll have a good run-in til he can use the car (first driving lessons booked, but he isn't going to use it for months) and both he and I have time til then to work hard on it. But it is an unknown, and a really good test for him. He wants to get into automotive engineering and loves older cars, so this should be really good for him, but staying power for kids who are used to instant outcomes on their screens can be a challenge from what I've seen.
Neither of us can weld anything like well, but I know people who can so I'm thinking maybe to get any welding done for us and we'll finish the jobs. I'm used to making/ shaping things with my hands so hopefully that'll work.
In relation to that, on these cars specifically, the cheaper one is flat white paint/ the other is silver metallic. From what I've seen and my memories, flat paint is way easier to work with, and metallic, esp on older cars, nigh impossible to match, so that's a plus for the newer car (the white one) even though its bodywork has some more rust. We're planning to view that one again at the weekend and the owner's going to put it on ramps so we can get a good look at it underneath, whatever the weather!
Thanks, C

ps Four separate replies to get up to 30 posts, but each is real and appreciates everyone's comments. If people who are replying to my endless questions don't mind me sending by pm the links to the cars I'm looking at, please reply or pm me and I'll send them on to you. Thank you!

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Apparently the live feed gets as far as the element, but it doesn't work - just going by what the seller says - apparently it may be an earthing issue?
LS - 'Clutch judder can be caused by many things, the common cause is contamination by oil which generally comes from the rear crank oil seal, meaning a flywheel off job to renew said seal.
However it could equally be caused by a leaky rocker cover gasket but worn engine and/or gearbox mounts can also create clutch judder.'
That's interesting - on the newer/ cheaper car (1990) there's some weeping from the rocker cover - maybe that's the cause of its judder. Sounds rather easier than flywheel off!
LS - 'Going back briefly to the speedo problem, the mileage is probably higher than would first appear as the mileage is unlikely to be recorded if the speedo isn't working.'
That's on the older (1985) more expensive car - I've seen pics of the service book and the mileage up to last year tallies with the final low mileage, so should be good.

In relation to you second post, how about this manual?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Owners-Work...0287845&sr=8-5
- as far as I can see, they all start in the same year but some go up to 1993, others stop sooner (presumably published while they were still being made?)
Thanks for your thorough reply!

Could well be an earth problem on the HRW Chris, that would be my first port of call with that information. YOu'll need to remove some trim near the rear window to find the earth terminal, follow the wire from the earth on the screen to where it joins the bodywork.

As for the Haynes Manuals, you need the Owners Workshop Manual, they are the only ones that truly contain all the information you need. They're all by Haynes but the OWMs will only be available secondhand by now unless you're really lucky. They did revise the books with extra information as and when Volvo released it for newer models so you need to get the newest OWM that covers your cars year as possible.

I've never actually seen a paperboack Haynes manual before so can't comment for certain but knowing the frequency with which it's likely to be used, get the hardback as listed on ebay!

Feel free to PM links to potential cars to me, happy to give an opinion!

With that clutch, the first thing to do would be to renew the rocker cover gasket and clean the area with a good degreaser. If you're lucky, the degreaser will follow the path of the oil and clean the clutch but that could be clutching at straws. (No pun intended!)
You may still have to replace the clutch but if it is purely oil from the rocker cover and the clutch is fairly good, you may be lucky and burn that off the clutch plate.

If the clutch holds well under load and you can tolerate a bit of judder (or overcome it one way or another) then you may be able to get away with it for quite some time.