Amazon: New (to me) 1963 Volvo 122

[Othen]

I've just acquired these:



... standard 4x15" Amazon wheels; at the moment they have some 175/70 tyres fitted, that size looks absolutely fine on the rims (and I think 185/65 would as well). The tyres aren't much use, but I just wanted the wheels as spares.

I'll probably take the tyres off, clean up the wheels (maybe with a bath of lye - I'm thinking about that) and paint them myself. Perhaps have some winter tyres fitted, we'll see.

:-)

[142 Guy]

Lye would be OK to act as a degreaser. I don't know whether it is any better or worse than other style degreasers. I have a personal aversion to lye because it is used in the preparation of lutefisk which is frequently served with a dose of Aquavit. Two negatives does not make a positive in this case.

If you intend to repaint, the lye has a low pH. Most advice indicates that it is best to treat the metal with an acidic solution prior to paining. Phosphoric acid based solutions seem to be the popular ones. POR 15 Metal Prep is a phosphoric based solution and there are probably others. If you elect to skip the phosphoric acid treatment just be sure to neutralize the surface prior to painting if you use a low pH cleaner like lye.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by 142 Guy

Lye would be OK to act as a degreaser. I don't know whether it is any better or worse than other style degreasers. I have a personal aversion to lye because it is used in the preparation of lutefisk which is frequently served with a dose of Aquavit. Two negatives does not make a positive in this case.

If you intend to repaint, the lye has a low pH. Most advice indicates that it is best to treat the metal with an acidic solution prior to paining. Phosphoric acid based solutions seem to be the popular ones. POR 15 Metal Prep is a phosphoric based solution and there are probably others. If you elect to skip the phosphoric acid treatment just be sure to neutralize the surface prior to painting if you use a low pH cleaner like lye.

Thank you,

Yes, of course, lye is quite a strong alkali so it would need to be neutralised.

I'm still thinking about this; the wheels are in rather better condition than I'd expected. It may be that they respond well to Screwfix degreaser and the jet-wash, perhaps assisted with a wire brush here and there. I'll get the tyres removed in the next few days and make a plan.

I read an article on stripping wheels with lye recently that claimed very good results indeed. If I'm not happy with just degreaser and jet-wash result then I may give it a go.

Alan

[Othen]

GAM's starter solenoid has developed an intermittent 'dead man's click', which is becoming less intermittent and more prevalent.

Comparing it to the drawings in the green book it looks like I have a 'late production' starter (it is a 1963 model with a B18 motor):



... so a Bosch GF 12v 1PS?

The starter itself seems fine and spins the motor well if the solenoid engages. The wiring from the (Ron Kwas) switch seems fine and I get 12.2v at the solenoid terminal with the switch engaged.

The green book just says to replace a faulty solenoid, so I'm guessing there are no service parts I might access? Is there anything else I should check before I start looking for an new solenoid?

It looks like an easy enough job to replace with the starter out of the motor car (is there anything to look out for).

... this is why we love 1960s motor cars :-).

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

GAM's starter solenoid has developed an intermittent 'dead man's click', which is becoming less intermittent and more prevalent.

Comparing it to the drawings in the green book it looks like I have a 'late production' starter (it is a 1963 model with a B18 motor):



... so a Bosch GF 12v 1PS?

The starter itself seems fine and spins the motor well if the solenoid engages. The wiring from the (Ron Kwas) switch seems fine and I get 12.2v at the solenoid terminal with the switch engaged.

The green book just says to replace a faulty solenoid, so I'm guessing there are no service parts I might access? Is there anything else I should check before I start looking for an new solenoid?

It looks like an easy enough job to replace with the starter out of the motor car (is there anything to look out for).

... this is why we love 1960s motor cars :-).

Alan

Almost certainly worn brushes Alan, remove the starter, place it in the vice nose down and remove the two long screws that go through from the commutator end to the drive end bracket (visible in your pic) then lift off the comm end cover. This should reveal the brushes and commutator and you should be able to see which are worn. Easiest (and best) to buy a pre-wired brush pack with the new brushes already fitted, soldering new ones to the old wires is fiddly and fraught with potential problems.
While the comm end bracket is off, clean it internally and drop some fresh engine oil into the bush and leave it to soak overnight. Also lube the drive end bush in the nose of the starter with engine oil and let soak.

If memory serves you don't have a lathe so clean the comm up with a length of emery tape using the technique where you fold it round the comm (in a long thin "U" shape) and alternately pull each tail of it with one hand while holding taught with the other. If you have a junior hacksaw blade, use that to undercut the plastic between the comm segments so the plastic is ~0.5-1.0mm below the copper segments and give the comm a final clean after.
Obviously clean all other terminals etc while you're at it, if you want to clean the solenoid plunger as well, remove the two or three (usually) countersunk Pozidriv screws holding the solenoid body to the D/E bracket and pull the body off the plunger. Clean the plunger and inside the body where the plunger slides - do not grease!

You can clean and lube the yoke with a little lithium grease, likewise the flutes on the armature shaft where the starter pinion slides along and a bit of grease where the plunger engages with the yoke. Don't lube the pinion as you are likely to make the one-way clutch slip.

Reassembly is accomplished by the method known as "Haynes it" - rebuilding is the reversal of strip down. You can bench test it in the vice using a slave battery, a pair of jump leads, screwdriver or similar and a piece of old batten. Connect the jump leads with -ve to the vice (holding the starter body) and +ve to the top terminal on the solenoid. Use the screwdriver to jump from the +ve terminal on the solenoid to the exciter terminal and the starter should engage and run. Put one end of the old batten on the bench and with the starter running, push upwards against the pinion teeth. THis will load the starter up to prove it's capable of a reasonable load and also check the one-way clutch isn't slipping in the pinion. If all is good, refit to GAM and test in the ultimate test bay.

Relax and enjoy a clebratory beverage!

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

Almost certainly worn brushes Alan, remove the starter, place it in the vice nose down and remove the two long screws that go through from the commutator end to the drive end bracket (visible in your pic) then lift off the comm end cover. This should reveal the brushes and commutator and you should be able to see which are worn. Easiest (and best) to buy a pre-wired brush pack with the new brushes already fitted, soldering new ones to the old wires is fiddly and fraught with potential problems.
While the comm end bracket is off, clean it internally and drop some fresh engine oil into the bush and leave it to soak overnight. Also lube the drive end bush in the nose of the starter with engine oil and let soak.

If memory serves you don't have a lathe so clean the comm up with a length of emery tape using the technique where you fold it round the comm (in a long thin "U" shape) and alternately pull each tail of it with one hand while holding taught with the other. If you have a junior hacksaw blade, use that to undercut the plastic between the comm segments so the plastic is ~0.5-1.0mm below the copper segments and give the comm a final clean after.
Obviously clean all other terminals etc while you're at it, if you want to clean the solenoid plunger as well, remove the two or three (usually) countersunk Pozidriv screws holding the solenoid body to the D/E bracket and pull the body off the plunger. Clean the plunger and inside the body where the plunger slides - do not grease!

You can clean and lube the yoke with a little lithium grease, likewise the flutes on the armature shaft where the starter pinion slides along and a bit of grease where the plunger engages with the yoke. Don't lube the pinion as you are likely to make the one-way clutch slip.

Reassembly is accomplished by the method known as "Haynes it" - rebuilding is the reversal of strip down. You can bench test it in the vice using a slave battery, a pair of jump leads, screwdriver or similar and a piece of old batten. Connect the jump leads with -ve to the vice (holding the starter body) and +ve to the top terminal on the solenoid. Use the screwdriver to jump from the +ve terminal on the solenoid to the exciter terminal and the starter should engage and run. Put one end of the old batten on the bench and with the starter running, push upwards against the pinion teeth. THis will load the starter up to prove it's capable of a reasonable load and also check the one-way clutch isn't slipping in the pinion. If all is good, refit to GAM and test in the ultimate test bay.

Relax and enjoy a clebratory beverage!

Many thanks Dave,

So, it is the starter, not the solenoid?

I suppose I could confirm that is the case by jumping the solenoid with a thick piece of wire next time it fails (I think I have some 10mm earth cable in my sparky's kit). If it still won't start it must be the brushes, if it does it must be the solenoid. What do you think?

Would a pre-wired brush pack be a generic item?

Many thanks,

Alan

[JP 1800]

You also state you have 12.2V at the solenoid, is this with the solenoid energised. If it is without energising you need to check the voltage drop as it should be at 12.6V with a charged battery. I would also clean up those connectors as they look a bit crusty. Always start with the basics before throwing parts at it. You need to do diagnostics not swapnostics. Of course those solenoids can fail but those bosch starters are very robust and reliable

[Othen]

Originally Posted by JP 1800

You also state you have 12.2V at the solenoid, is this with the solenoid energised. If it is without energising you need to check the voltage drop as it should be at 12.6V with a charged battery. I would also clean up those connectors as they look a bit crusty. Always start with the basics before throwing parts at it. You need to do diagnostics not swapnostics. Of course those solenoids can fail but those bosch starters are very robust and reliable

Thank you for that.

The 12.2v was at the bare end of the wire from the switch - so without the solenoid being energised. It will only take me a few minutes to track the voltage drop from the ignition switch to the starter button, and then on to the solenoid terminal tomorrow, so I will do that, but are we really saying the error budget is so tight that 0.4v will prevent the solenoid from actuating?

To confirm that line: I suppose I could run a temporary wire from the battery with a loose end I could touch on the solenoid terminal, and so isolate the starter (key) switch and the starter button. As always with intermittent issues the problem can be re-creating the fault state - but that does seem to be occurring more frequently, and so may become less of a problem.

I’m happy to go through a thorough non-invasive diagnosis before I resort to Dave’s remedy (see above); that is exactly why I have asked the question rather than just follow the green book advice.

Many thanks :-)

Alan

[JP 1800]

Firstly check the battery voltage as it should be 12.6V, any less it needs charging. A voltage drop of 0.4 signifies an issue with the wiring, the voltage drop is not as important as the associated current drop which can have an impact. Clean up contacts and earths to bring the voltage drop down. The solenoid can be checked in place as you said. If you are still having problems then take the starter off and bench test it as others have said. When on the bench you can also remove the solenoid and check. In my experience a lot of electrical problems arise from bad or poor connections. If the issue still stands you can get the unit checked at a shop which does alternator repairs.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Many thanks Dave,

So, it is the starter, not the solenoid?

I suppose I could confirm that is the case by jumping the solenoid with a thick piece of wire next time it fails (I think I have some 10mm earth cable in my sparky's kit). If it still won't start it must be the brushes, if it does it must be the solenoid. What do you think?

Would a pre-wired brush pack be a generic item?

Many thanks,

Alan

The strter itself provides the earth return for the solenoid pull-in coil Alan, once the solenoid is in it makes the contacts between the two large terminals on the solenoid and also feeds a hold-in coil on the solenoid that takes much less current.

Shorting the two large terminals is best done with an old spanner or preferably screwdriver, wire can be clumsy to use especially when bent over a wing and isn't always easy to remove. If shorting those terminals doesn't make it run, then it's another indication it's the brushes.

You'll need to get the 10-digit Bosch number off the motor, should start "0 0001" and then look up the brush pack.

https://www.woodauto.com/group/156/B...ter-Brush-Gear

Likely to be one of those. Possibly even this one :

https://www.woodauto.com/bom/67383/BOSCH-0001311103

That's the BOM for an 0 001 311 103 starter as fitted to early 140 cars - they don't list the 120 series but if memory serves late 120 and early 140 used the same starter. If so, this is the brush pack

https://www.woodauto.com/product/BOS1004336036

Could also be just a dirty comm and some brake cleaner followed by emery tape and more brake cleaner will fix it - you won't know until you pull it out.